35 ms·

> the one that actually creates value No. We all create value. Businesses, when running smoothly, are like a well oiled machine. Nothing is redundant. Garbage

by unabst 9y ago

> the one that actually creates value No. We all create value. Businesses, when running smoothly, are like a well oiled machine. Nothing is redundant. Garbage is collected. Businesses is cutthroat industries cannot afford to be redundant. I always wondered why all cars had 4 wheels. Turns out, the 3 wheeled car is horrible (see Top Gear), a 5 wheeled car is pointless, and a 2 wheeled car is a motorcycle. But when you're a kid, compact jet propulsion or anti-gravity doesn't seem so difficult. But that's also why you're a kid. I started a business thinking everyone can be their own executive, worker, and entrepreneur. They could handle their own responsibilities, manage their work, and do that work. Unfortunately, we had to go through a lot of them. Utopia wasn't working, but they were also miserable. It wasn't what they wanted, expected, or enjoyed. They all loved the idea though, including myself. Fast forward five years, and my car has 4 wheels. I am the "founder". I decide where the business should go, lay out the work that needs to be done, and hand it over. The "executive" is then responsible for that work getting done. They hand it over to the "employees" in a way that is efficient and accountable. The third group just needs to accomplish the tasks they promised to do for the money they agreed on. I'll see your scumbag executive and raise you my wrench throwing employee and delusional founder -- that would be me. I'd like to think 4 years ago, but who the hell knows. If you wish to manage responsibilities, join the managers. If you wish to drive the ship, join the founders. And this is your correct career path. An employee who believes they are better than the founder or executive is already holding a wrench.

f2f 9y ago
There are/were six-wheeled cars that got shut out because of market forces unrelated to how well they ran in competition. Google Tyrrell's Formula 1 Six Wheeler
- unabst 9y ago
  Yes, there are always exceptions. The point is, what works works, and if you're forced to make things work, before you know it, you'll find yourself looking awfully similar to those in a similar situation. There is a reason why these business structures are so common. They work.
  - lmm 9y ago
    Is it that they're the only way that works? Or is it that everyone just assumes they're the only way? E.g. Valve took a radically different approach to management and organisational structure and seems to have been very successful.
    - unabst 9y ago
      Of course not... hence the exceptions, and room for innovation, and opportunity for those seeking that innovation. But if you just need something that works, copying a wheel is easier than reinventing one. Better yet, just buy one. Furthermore, understanding the reasons why the most common wheel is what it is will provide invaluable insight into making a better wheel if it comes to that. It will also tell you the market forces or anything else at play. The reasons why anything works will exist and be real, if that thing that works exists and is working already.
    - eropple 9y ago
      Valve is largely paralyzed and if you aren't in the group of cool kids most of that self-actualizing stuff in the HR document/propaganda material doesn't really apply to you. Enough people have left because of it that the bloom is well off the rose.
  - graphememes 9y ago
    This is totally a sales pitch. You can tell because when confronted with an alternative that works and is viable you get the age ol' "Yeah well anything is possible" Of course, what is current was also possible, you're ignoring the fact you're buying into the current dogma and repeating it.
    - unabst 9y ago
      > you're buying into the current dogma and repeating it. Maybe, had I bought something. I did not buy my corporate structure. I built it. It sounds like you're saying all cars have four wheels because everyone is buying into the current dogma and repeating it. I'm saying, if you're building a car from scratch, there is a high likelihood you'll arrive at four wheels. As a matter of engineering, certain structures are common for their physical and functional nature. The more specific the parameters of behavior, the more specific the implementation.
ChuckMcM 9y ago
This is exactly right. I've been in all three roles and all three are essential to success. I can also relate to the notion that the engineers do all the work, which was a sentiment I shared early in my career before I understood the kinds of problems executives and founders had to solve. I cringe when I hear an executive say "How hard can it be? Get some bright bulbs in here and have code up a solution that doesn't have these problems." or when an engineer says "The CEO just parties with 'investors' and blows sunshine up our ass while we actually build the thing he is gets credit for." or when a founder says "I wrote the foundation this company at a dam hackathon in 24 hours and you're going to take 6 months to have an alpha release?" I have seen again and again that people who haven't been in the role they are criticizing have constructed an understanding of it that doesn't capture what the actual role entails. Or in the the crowd funding case completely under estimating to cost or effort to do some aspect of development they have never done before. If the company is hitting its milestones, people know what they should be doing, and the problems that pop up all seem that they can be overcome. Then you know all three classes of people are doing their jobs well. When things take forever to get done, nobody knows why or how the thing they are working on fits in, and every week there is a new problem that changes all the priorities and efforts, then you know you're on the way to being dead as a company.
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  You don't really understand the value of a role until you see someone great for the role. This adds to a lot of the bad feelings. Some people are great at marketing, but if you work for someone mediocre then it's easy to see how you will think they are worthless.
  - karthikb 9y ago
    On the flipside, you don't know if someone's great until you have seen someone mediocre. They may be preventing all sorts of fires, but because you don't even know those fires could exist...
- brianwawok 9y ago
  This times 100. It is easy to sit around as a dev and complain about what the suits are doing, when the devs do all the work. I don't think the same devs would be very happy if they switched jobs for a day (and in the same thought, I don't think the suite would do that well coding either). (Edit: I have only done the dev and founder role here. But I just had about 10 executives tell me what kind of treats I was in for. I believed them, just from what I had learned in two of the roles).

by unabst 9y ago

f2f 9y ago

There are/were six-wheeled cars that got shut out because of market forces unrelated to how well they ran in competition. Google Tyrrell's Formula 1 Six Wheeler

unabst 9y ago
Yes, there are always exceptions. The point is, what works works, and if you're forced to make things work, before you know it, you'll find yourself looking awfully similar to those in a similar situation. There is a reason why these business structures are so common. They work.
- lmm 9y ago
  Is it that they're the only way that works? Or is it that everyone just assumes they're the only way? E.g. Valve took a radically different approach to management and organisational structure and seems to have been very successful.
  - unabst 9y ago
    Of course not... hence the exceptions, and room for innovation, and opportunity for those seeking that innovation. But if you just need something that works, copying a wheel is easier than reinventing one. Better yet, just buy one. Furthermore, understanding the reasons why the most common wheel is what it is will provide invaluable insight into making a better wheel if it comes to that. It will also tell you the market forces or anything else at play. The reasons why anything works will exist and be real, if that thing that works exists and is working already.
  - eropple 9y ago
    Valve is largely paralyzed and if you aren't in the group of cool kids most of that self-actualizing stuff in the HR document/propaganda material doesn't really apply to you. Enough people have left because of it that the bloom is well off the rose.
- graphememes 9y ago
  This is totally a sales pitch. You can tell because when confronted with an alternative that works and is viable you get the age ol' "Yeah well anything is possible" Of course, what is current was also possible, you're ignoring the fact you're buying into the current dogma and repeating it.
  - unabst 9y ago
    > you're buying into the current dogma and repeating it. Maybe, had I bought something. I did not buy my corporate structure. I built it. It sounds like you're saying all cars have four wheels because everyone is buying into the current dogma and repeating it. I'm saying, if you're building a car from scratch, there is a high likelihood you'll arrive at four wheels. As a matter of engineering, certain structures are common for their physical and functional nature. The more specific the parameters of behavior, the more specific the implementation.

ChuckMcM 9y ago

This is exactly right. I've been in all three roles and all three are essential to success. I can also relate to the notion that the engineers do all the work, which was a sentiment I shared early in my career before I understood the kinds of problems executives and founders had to solve. I cringe when I hear an executive say "How hard can it be? Get some bright bulbs in here and have code up a solution that doesn't have these problems." or when an engineer says "The CEO just parties with 'investors' and blows sunshine up our ass while we actually build the thing he is gets credit for." or when a founder says "I wrote the foundation this company at a dam hackathon in 24 hours and you're going to take 6 months to have an alpha release?" I have seen again and again that people who haven't been in the role they are criticizing have constructed an understanding of it that doesn't capture what the actual role entails. Or in the the crowd funding case completely under estimating to cost or effort to do some aspect of development they have never done before. If the company is hitting its milestones, people know what they should be doing, and the problems that pop up all seem that they can be overcome. Then you know all three classes of people are doing their jobs well. When things take forever to get done, nobody knows why or how the thing they are working on fits in, and every week there is a new problem that changes all the priorities and efforts, then you know you're on the way to being dead as a company.

jeffdavis 9y ago
You don't really understand the value of a role until you see someone great for the role. This adds to a lot of the bad feelings. Some people are great at marketing, but if you work for someone mediocre then it's easy to see how you will think they are worthless.
- karthikb 9y ago
  On the flipside, you don't know if someone's great until you have seen someone mediocre. They may be preventing all sorts of fires, but because you don't even know those fires could exist...
brianwawok 9y ago
This times 100. It is easy to sit around as a dev and complain about what the suits are doing, when the devs do all the work. I don't think the same devs would be very happy if they switched jobs for a day (and in the same thought, I don't think the suite would do that well coding either). (Edit: I have only done the dev and founder role here. But I just had about 10 executives tell me what kind of treats I was in for. I believed them, just from what I had learned in two of the roles).