5 ms·

Protecting youth from failures of justice is a more palatable political stance than protecting adults (which is no longer "hard on crime")?

KekDemaga 9y ago
I'm pretty conservative and I can't imagine how having someone understand their constitutional rights would be unpalatable to anyone on either side of the aisle. I want to be tough on criminals but you are only a criminal after you have received your due process and have been found guilty of a crime.
- macintux 9y ago
  > I want to be tough on criminals but you are only a criminal after you have received your due process and have been found guilty of a crime. That is sadly not a typical viewpoint, particularly among conservatives.
  - KekDemaga 9y ago
    >That is sadly not a typical viewpoint, particularly among conservatives. I consider those people as more GOP enthusiasts than conservatives. An example of a true conservative would be someone like Tucker Carlson or Rand Paul. It's sort of like how antifa doesn't represent the majority of democrat voters I have encountered. They are a slim minority of loud voices that muddy the waters.
    - justin66 9y ago
      > It's sort of like how antifa doesn't represent the majority of democrat voters I have encountered. It would be fascinating if they represented even a minority of the democratic voters you've encountered. They don't seem like they'd be even a statistical blip on the radar.
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      They're all conservatives. A conservative is someone who self identifies as a conservative, that's really all that matters. Antifa are liberals, radical extreme liberals that seem to have a problem with free speech, but liberals none the less.
    - int_19h 9y ago
      > It's sort of like how antifa doesn't represent the majority of democrat voters I have encountered. That is rather an understatement. It's not just they don't represent the majority - many of them are, in fact, opposed to said majority. Google "liberals get the bullet too".
  - stronglikedan 9y ago
    Every conservative I know and whose viewpoints I'm familiar with holds that viewpoint. I would go even further to say most people I know in general hold that viewpoint. In fact, the few people I know that are quick to find people guilty in the court of public opinion are not conservatives.
    - geofft 9y ago
      I think there are two senses of "conservative" used in this thread: "likely voters for the US Republican party" and "actual conservatives, who are aligned towards small government / libertarianism / something". Hence the disagreement.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - gnaritas 9y ago
        "Actual conservative", that's the no true Scottsman fallacy; everyone who self identifies as a conservative is a conservative, regardless of how well they stick to those values.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Actual conservative", that's the no true Scottsman fallacy Using the term “conservative” to refer to a well-defined ideology rather than a self-identification isn't inherently No True Scotsman. (In fact the “everyone who self identifies as a conservative is a conservative” approach is often used to make arguments about a defined ideology based on people who self-identify as “conservative” but don't adhere to the features of the ideology under discussion, which is he fallacy of equivocation [0].)
        gnaritas 9y ago
        > Using the term “conservative” to refer to a well-defined ideology rather than a self-identification isn't inherently No True Scotsman. Correct it isn't inherently that when the topic is the ideology, but when the topic is x group of people it is. This thread isn't about conservative ideology, it's about how people who identify as conservatives feel about criminals and due process so pulling out the "actual" conservatives line is no true Scottsman here. It's a bullshit excuse to avoid facing the hypocrisy of what people who call themselves conservatives believe. Conservatives support Joe Arpio, conservatives claim to support due process, these two things conflict; Joe Arpio doesn't support due process, he robs people of it. If you support Arpio, you do not support due process.
  - maxlybbert 9y ago
    I get the feeling that you don't know many people who disagree with you, and this comment is based more on stereotypes of what somebody might believe instead of what real people actually do believe.
    - macintux 9y ago
      I'm surrounded by conservatives. I live in a conservative state, from a conservative family, and my primary hobby is very popular with conservatives.
      - maxlybbert 9y ago
        I'll acknowledge that I was wrong.
  - okreallywtf 9y ago
    This is why the "We're a nation of laws"[0] statements (from many individuals) referring to DACA recipients and illegal immigrants concerns me, there is no way that law enforcement has the resources to simultaneously prosecute all infractions, nor would we want to, but its very easy to be for an overly zealous justice system when it impacts people you are not fond of but doesn't impact you. I would say we're all guilty of that in some ways, but it shows a total disregard for humanity I think to think that just because a law exists that it needs to be enforced blindly regardless of whether the enforcement of said law actually benefits society and whether the lack of enforcement would negatively affect society. There are plenty of laws that we don't enforce and shouldn't that are/were used to disenfranchise certain minorities [1], and just throwing your hands up and saying "we're a nation of laws" is dishonest at best. [0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/05/statement-president-donald-j-trump https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/05/state... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_Stat...
- rconti 9y ago
  I think the problem is not how understandable it is, but how robotic it is. This recitation of Miranda is so driven into our heads from TV and movies that I don't think anyone would bother to parse it. If the language got "friendlier", I think the same thing would happen over the span of years-- again, if it was said exactly the same way, every time. Of course, if the cop mixes it up and uses different words and intonation, now they're opening themselves up to liability.
- grasshopperpurp 9y ago
  >I can't imagine how having someone understand their constitutional rights would be unpalatable to anyone on either side of the aisle. If someone is promoting something very obviously wrong, they're usually making money off of it. Jeff Sessions, of course, rescinded the order to phase out private prisons. Citizens, such as yourself, can have your own ideas on what it means to be tough on crime. For politicians, it just means they want to trade lives for money. http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-justice-department-rescinds-order-1487893081-htmlstory.html http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-w...
- gnaritas 9y ago
  So how did you feel about Joe Arpio's tent city jail and chain gangs for the inmates? Virtually every conservative I've ever known supports it.

KekDemaga 9y ago

I'm pretty conservative and I can't imagine how having someone understand their constitutional rights would be unpalatable to anyone on either side of the aisle. I want to be tough on criminals but you are only a criminal after you have received your due process and have been found guilty of a crime.

macintux 9y ago
> I want to be tough on criminals but you are only a criminal after you have received your due process and have been found guilty of a crime. That is sadly not a typical viewpoint, particularly among conservatives.
- KekDemaga 9y ago
  >That is sadly not a typical viewpoint, particularly among conservatives. I consider those people as more GOP enthusiasts than conservatives. An example of a true conservative would be someone like Tucker Carlson or Rand Paul. It's sort of like how antifa doesn't represent the majority of democrat voters I have encountered. They are a slim minority of loud voices that muddy the waters.
  - justin66 9y ago
    > It's sort of like how antifa doesn't represent the majority of democrat voters I have encountered. It would be fascinating if they represented even a minority of the democratic voters you've encountered. They don't seem like they'd be even a statistical blip on the radar.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    They're all conservatives. A conservative is someone who self identifies as a conservative, that's really all that matters. Antifa are liberals, radical extreme liberals that seem to have a problem with free speech, but liberals none the less.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    > It's sort of like how antifa doesn't represent the majority of democrat voters I have encountered. That is rather an understatement. It's not just they don't represent the majority - many of them are, in fact, opposed to said majority. Google "liberals get the bullet too".
- stronglikedan 9y ago
  Every conservative I know and whose viewpoints I'm familiar with holds that viewpoint. I would go even further to say most people I know in general hold that viewpoint. In fact, the few people I know that are quick to find people guilty in the court of public opinion are not conservatives.
  - geofft 9y ago
    I think there are two senses of "conservative" used in this thread: "likely voters for the US Republican party" and "actual conservatives, who are aligned towards small government / libertarianism / something". Hence the disagreement.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      "Actual conservative", that's the no true Scottsman fallacy; everyone who self identifies as a conservative is a conservative, regardless of how well they stick to those values.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Actual conservative", that's the no true Scottsman fallacy Using the term “conservative” to refer to a well-defined ideology rather than a self-identification isn't inherently No True Scotsman. (In fact the “everyone who self identifies as a conservative is a conservative” approach is often used to make arguments about a defined ideology based on people who self-identify as “conservative” but don't adhere to the features of the ideology under discussion, which is he fallacy of equivocation [0].)
        gnaritas 9y ago
        > Using the term “conservative” to refer to a well-defined ideology rather than a self-identification isn't inherently No True Scotsman. Correct it isn't inherently that when the topic is the ideology, but when the topic is x group of people it is. This thread isn't about conservative ideology, it's about how people who identify as conservatives feel about criminals and due process so pulling out the "actual" conservatives line is no true Scottsman here. It's a bullshit excuse to avoid facing the hypocrisy of what people who call themselves conservatives believe. Conservatives support Joe Arpio, conservatives claim to support due process, these two things conflict; Joe Arpio doesn't support due process, he robs people of it. If you support Arpio, you do not support due process.
- maxlybbert 9y ago
  I get the feeling that you don't know many people who disagree with you, and this comment is based more on stereotypes of what somebody might believe instead of what real people actually do believe.
  - macintux 9y ago
    I'm surrounded by conservatives. I live in a conservative state, from a conservative family, and my primary hobby is very popular with conservatives.
    - maxlybbert 9y ago
      I'll acknowledge that I was wrong.
- okreallywtf 9y ago
  This is why the "We're a nation of laws"[0] statements (from many individuals) referring to DACA recipients and illegal immigrants concerns me, there is no way that law enforcement has the resources to simultaneously prosecute all infractions, nor would we want to, but its very easy to be for an overly zealous justice system when it impacts people you are not fond of but doesn't impact you. I would say we're all guilty of that in some ways, but it shows a total disregard for humanity I think to think that just because a law exists that it needs to be enforced blindly regardless of whether the enforcement of said law actually benefits society and whether the lack of enforcement would negatively affect society. There are plenty of laws that we don't enforce and shouldn't that are/were used to disenfranchise certain minorities [1], and just throwing your hands up and saying "we're a nation of laws" is dishonest at best. [0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/05/statement-president-donald-j-trump https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/05/state... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_Stat...
rconti 9y ago
I think the problem is not how understandable it is, but how robotic it is. This recitation of Miranda is so driven into our heads from TV and movies that I don't think anyone would bother to parse it. If the language got "friendlier", I think the same thing would happen over the span of years-- again, if it was said exactly the same way, every time. Of course, if the cop mixes it up and uses different words and intonation, now they're opening themselves up to liability.
grasshopperpurp 9y ago
>I can't imagine how having someone understand their constitutional rights would be unpalatable to anyone on either side of the aisle. If someone is promoting something very obviously wrong, they're usually making money off of it. Jeff Sessions, of course, rescinded the order to phase out private prisons. Citizens, such as yourself, can have your own ideas on what it means to be tough on crime. For politicians, it just means they want to trade lives for money. http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-justice-department-rescinds-order-1487893081-htmlstory.html http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-w...
gnaritas 9y ago
So how did you feel about Joe Arpio's tent city jail and chain gangs for the inmates? Virtually every conservative I've ever known supports it.