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You know, that's a problem too. I mean, I take that 90% of jobs aren't specialized positions. Once you need a college degree for a position that only requires g
by tpeo 9y ago
You know, that's a problem too. I mean, I take that 90% of jobs aren't specialized positions. Once you need a college degree for a position that only requires general skills, or in which the employee can do just fine on-the-job training and experience, then what are those years in college for exactly?
As far as I know, people could get by with a high school degree in the 1970s: there was no significant wage difference between a high school graduate and a college graduate, and both faced similar rates of unemployment. Nowadays employers take for granted that candidates must have some form of qualification, even for positions that don't seem to require it. Has the quality of education fallen and the grades been inflated to such a point where degrees are no longer reliable signals of productivity?
- Danihan 9y agoExactly. If no domain specific skills are needed and a general education is good enough, then a high school diploma should have sufficed anyway.
- dsr_ 9y agoDegrees are not reliable signals of productivity. I would much rather hire someone who didn't finish college but has had five years of progressive responsibility in the right area, than someone who had just finished a four or five year degree course but had never worked.
- tpeo 9y agoI didn't say they were. They aren't, that's the issue. A college degree overshoots the level of qualification necessary for a general skills job and comes short of the qualification necessary for a specialized position. Also, your crosswise comparison between an experienced candidate without a degree and an inexperienced candidate with a degree only tells me that you put more weight into experience than having a degree. It really doesn't tell me much about whether a degree is a good signal, but only that it's worse than experience. Now, if you had told me that you don't consider whether a candidate has a degree at all then I'd be able to infer that they are terrible signals and carry no information at all.
- dsr_ 9y agoI said what I meant: they're not reliable signals. You've got a space of time in a person's life between, presumably, graduating high school and sending you a resume. What did they do with that time? Merely having a degree doesn't say much. Merely not having a degree doesn't say much. Having an honors BS in CS from CMU, MIT, Stanford, or a bunch of other schools implies academic competence and exposure to a certain range of ideas. But I don't know that they can be productive outside of that environment. Having an ordinary BS in a STEM subject from a random college that I've never heard of means even less to me. But is it zero? No. Holding down a job for those four years is a signal, too, and it needs evaluation. What kind of job? While living at home? Did anything progress during that time? Is it relevant to what we're trying to hire for?
- saint_fiasco 9y agoFor most people, college education funges against job experience. It's hard to work full time while also being a college student.
- Sacho 9y agoBut does the progressive responsibility ladder exist for a high school graduate? Can they start their career in a job, even at an internship level? I think you can tease out three possible factors influencing the situation here: - more people graduating, more supply, means that even entry-level jobs are flooded with college graduates - entry-level jobs in decline, either due to automation or companies just not interested in providing apprenticeships - student loans shifting the power dynamics between employer/employee; you're more pressed to get a job, any job, so you're more likely to take up positions where you're overqualified and underpaid These scenarios all form positive feedback loops to each other; with more high-skilled worker supply in the market, companies can grow their non-entry level jobs while automating the low-level ones; this reduction in entry jobs means that the desperate college students compete more fiercely with high school students, raising the bar for entry level jobs; the raised bar for entry level jobs forces more high school students to go into college rather than start work, which saddles them with student debt, feeding into the cycle. I've noticed that many social situations tend to end up in such vicious, entangled circles. My dad used to call these the "downward spiral of failure" and the "upward spiral of success", and I really don't know how you transition from one to the other without a monumental effort or some kind of miracle breakthrough.
- gthtjtkt 9y agoExactly this. The problem here is wanting to be a tenured professor, not having an English degree.
- hyperbolerules 9y agoit’s a good rule of thumb that punching up your argument with ridiculous emotionally resonant hyperbole makes your logic seem really, really strong.
- gthtjtkt 9y agoIt's a good rule of thumb that comments necessitating a new throwaway account aren't worth making.
- omginternets 9y agoAnd yet, he's 100% right.
- HyperboleRocks 9y agoWhat's the best way to ensure employee loyalty? Make sure they're saddled with mountains of crippling debt so they can't afford to quit! And why should companies have their HR departments thoroughly vet candidates when they can rely on the college admissions process to do it for them? Free vetting AND loyal slave... uh... I mean... employees! Who could say no to that!?
- trentmb 9y ago> then what are those years in college for exactly? A proxy for an IQ test?