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I think "Don't go to college" is the best advice today. That only works in industries like software etc. If one wants to be a lawyer, doctor etc they have no c

by vijayr 9y ago

I think "Don't go to college" is the best advice today. That only works in industries like software etc. If one wants to be a lawyer, doctor etc they have no choice but to go to college, right? Some American students are going abroad (Germany etc), that could be a short term option.

sigstoat 9y ago
considering the state of the legal job market, going to law school is its own brand of crazy, and certainly no ticket to wealth, as conventional wisdom would have it. and getting into medical school is basically luck of the draw; there are far more overqualified applicants than necessary. thinning that herd a bit isn't going to hurt.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> That only works in industries like software etc. If one wants to be a lawyer, doctor etc they have no choice but to go to college, right? For lawyers in some US jurisdictions, including California, no; California, for instance, requires general education of two years of college or “demonstrated equivalent intellectual achievement” prior to study of law, and several options for the study of law, including what amounts to apprenticeship in law office or judge's chambers. So traditional college or law school is not strictly required.
- jogjayr 9y ago
  Except that all the top law firms hire exclusively from top law schools. And the legal field is generally oversupplied with lawyers so if you don't work at a top law firm you won't be making a great living for a long time.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Except that all the top law firms hire exclusively from top law schools The top law firms employ small percentage of employed lawyers. And not even a huge percentage of graduates of top law schools. And aren't even the kind of work some people going into law want to do. Confusing “what you need to get a job at a top law firm” with “what you need to be a lawyer” is like confusing “what you need to get a job at Google” with “what you need to be a programmer”. > And the legal field is generally oversupplied with lawyers so if you don't work at a top law firm you won't be making a great living for a long time. If you avoid undergraduate and law school debt (and especially if you are a paid employee instead of a paying student during your legal education), you can make a great living at a substantially lower salary than if you don't; and olif you do a legal apprenticeship, you come out with real-world experience most law students won't have (and quite often a job in the office you apprenticed in, if it was a law office and not a judges chambers.)
    - jogjayr 9y ago
      Honestly I don't know the legal field that well. How common is it to get a legal apprenticeship without any sort of degree? (because we're talking about avoiding all college debt, not just law school debt). If you don't get an apprenticeship, then your options after passing the bar with self-study are essentially (it seems to me): 1. low-paid government work (like public defenders) 2. setting up your own practice (hard to build up a client base initially) 3. working on contract/temp basis for another law firm with variable prospects Law school isn't just about credentialling and signaling; it also sets you up with a valuable alumni network that helps you get work. Anecdotally it's easier for an aspiring programmer without a network to get a referral into a tech company; go to a few meetups, hackathons or conferences, build a portfolio/github, meet a few people and ask them if they'll refer you (I've both gotten a job and helped someone get a job this way). And very few people ask or care about where you went to school when they can see your work instead. Again I may just be biased because I know the tech field better but it seems to me that it's harder to demonstrate your legal skills since you can't exactly post a sample contract or legal opinion you wrote, on Github (or maybe there's a portfolio site for lawyers too, who knows). > Confusing “what you need to get a job at a top law firm” with “what you need to be a lawyer” is like confusing “what you need to get a job at Google” with “what you need to be a programmer”. Again, not knowing the legal field well it seems to me that even mediocre programmers do better than mediocre lawyers because of the supply-demand differences between the two fields.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > How common is it to get a legal apprenticeship without any sort of degree? There are very small numbers of people who choose that route (and very low awareness that it even exists); as I understand, there are mere dozens actually doing it any time in California recently. One of the more common routes, reportedly, is people who are already employed (e.g., as paralegals) in the office they become apprentices in.
Symmetry 9y ago
If you want to be a doctor you could always just go to medical school overseas without going to college first.

by vijayr 9y ago

sigstoat 9y ago

considering the state of the legal job market, going to law school is its own brand of crazy, and certainly no ticket to wealth, as conventional wisdom would have it. and getting into medical school is basically luck of the draw; there are far more overqualified applicants than necessary. thinning that herd a bit isn't going to hurt.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> That only works in industries like software etc. If one wants to be a lawyer, doctor etc they have no choice but to go to college, right? For lawyers in some US jurisdictions, including California, no; California, for instance, requires general education of two years of college or “demonstrated equivalent intellectual achievement” prior to study of law, and several options for the study of law, including what amounts to apprenticeship in law office or judge's chambers. So traditional college or law school is not strictly required.

jogjayr 9y ago
Except that all the top law firms hire exclusively from top law schools. And the legal field is generally oversupplied with lawyers so if you don't work at a top law firm you won't be making a great living for a long time.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Except that all the top law firms hire exclusively from top law schools The top law firms employ small percentage of employed lawyers. And not even a huge percentage of graduates of top law schools. And aren't even the kind of work some people going into law want to do. Confusing “what you need to get a job at a top law firm” with “what you need to be a lawyer” is like confusing “what you need to get a job at Google” with “what you need to be a programmer”. > And the legal field is generally oversupplied with lawyers so if you don't work at a top law firm you won't be making a great living for a long time. If you avoid undergraduate and law school debt (and especially if you are a paid employee instead of a paying student during your legal education), you can make a great living at a substantially lower salary than if you don't; and olif you do a legal apprenticeship, you come out with real-world experience most law students won't have (and quite often a job in the office you apprenticed in, if it was a law office and not a judges chambers.)
  - jogjayr 9y ago
    Honestly I don't know the legal field that well. How common is it to get a legal apprenticeship without any sort of degree? (because we're talking about avoiding all college debt, not just law school debt). If you don't get an apprenticeship, then your options after passing the bar with self-study are essentially (it seems to me): 1. low-paid government work (like public defenders) 2. setting up your own practice (hard to build up a client base initially) 3. working on contract/temp basis for another law firm with variable prospects Law school isn't just about credentialling and signaling; it also sets you up with a valuable alumni network that helps you get work. Anecdotally it's easier for an aspiring programmer without a network to get a referral into a tech company; go to a few meetups, hackathons or conferences, build a portfolio/github, meet a few people and ask them if they'll refer you (I've both gotten a job and helped someone get a job this way). And very few people ask or care about where you went to school when they can see your work instead. Again I may just be biased because I know the tech field better but it seems to me that it's harder to demonstrate your legal skills since you can't exactly post a sample contract or legal opinion you wrote, on Github (or maybe there's a portfolio site for lawyers too, who knows). > Confusing “what you need to get a job at a top law firm” with “what you need to be a lawyer” is like confusing “what you need to get a job at Google” with “what you need to be a programmer”. Again, not knowing the legal field well it seems to me that even mediocre programmers do better than mediocre lawyers because of the supply-demand differences between the two fields.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > How common is it to get a legal apprenticeship without any sort of degree? There are very small numbers of people who choose that route (and very low awareness that it even exists); as I understand, there are mere dozens actually doing it any time in California recently. One of the more common routes, reportedly, is people who are already employed (e.g., as paralegals) in the office they become apprentices in.

Symmetry 9y ago

If you want to be a doctor you could always just go to medical school overseas without going to college first.