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You are kind of exemplifying the attitude that the parent comment complains about. You have standards that are not being met, but instead of communicating clear

You are kind of exemplifying the attitude that the parent comment complains about. You have standards that are not being met, but instead of communicating clearly you just try to shame the other person. I understand communicating such simple things is not as simple as the thing would make it seem. In fact, the point of the article was that such work is unappreciated. But just because it's not appreciated it doesn't mean it's not important. You should still do it.

chadlavi 9y ago
Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. I can't say I'm at all surprised to see that sort of mens-rightsism around ycombinator, though.
- nxsynonym 9y ago
  She's not sexist for expecting those things, she's sexist for trying to attribute her Husbands lack of those qualities to all male partners on the basis they are men. Yeah, he's lazy. But that's for him to fix - not the male gender. Also - It's not his responsibility to shoulder the burden of her emotions. It is his responsibility to get the things done that were agreed upon between the two of them. If she is not happy with the arrangement, they need to come to a new agreement. The only direct failing I see is the main example she gave, he should have just picked a damn cleaning service. Everything else is a sexist, emotion fueled diatribe about how men are emotional vacuums and don't help out enough around the house.
- exergy 9y ago
  There are things in life that are "beyond disgusting", but this age-old tradition going back to as long as there have been marriages scarcely makes that cut. Chomping at the bit and flying off the handle is hardly going to get you anywhere. Also, in two comments, you've failed to address the central point of the OP: What if the guy has lower standards for cleanliness? What if he doesn't mind the odd gift box not kept away for two days? The OP is saying that the woman seems not to have paused to wonder about whether they agree on the fundamental standards for "how much effort is worth putting into our living spaces" Mind you, I lean towards your side of the argument. I grew up witnessing what the woman perfectly described: there are millions of tasks that women quietly do that men demand that they be applauded for. My parents are definitely in that mould.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  Only men are sexist? Are you serious?
- rootlocus 9y ago
  You're missing the point. > In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted—giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. It's not about taking an equal share in the "emotional labor". It's about her not communicating proper intent, treating effort "ungratefully" and ultimately being disappointed for not receiving what was wanted. She wanted: > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but the fact that for once I would not be in charge of the household office work. I would not have to make the calls, get multiple quotes, research and vet each service, arrange payment and schedule the appointment. but she asked for: > one thing: a house cleaning service. That's the stereotypical "women don't say what they think".
  - saint_fiasco 9y ago
    I think they don't "say what they really think" because it's hard work. I hate gifts and would rather receive cash for a present, but if I were the sort of person who wanted a specific gift I would find it annoying to have to justify it, explain what the gift really means to me on a deep level, and so on. That sort of "emotional labor" might in fact be the reason I dislike gifts, now that I think about it.
    - rootlocus 9y ago
      > but if I were the sort of person who wanted a specific gift I would find it annoying to have to justify it, explain what the gift really means to me on a deep level, and so on That's fine if you don't give a shit whether or not you receive the expected gift. But throwing a tantrum after the fact and writing an entire blog post about it is unreasonable. She (they) clearly has deeper problems than not receiving what she wanted. Those problems can't be resolved without communication.
      - saint_fiasco 9y ago
        Right. I have enough self-awareness that I don't bother asking for specific gifts. It all adds up to compromise, knowing your quirks and limitations and not trying too hard to make reality conform to your quirks. However, I think it is not fair to criticize the author for trying to do the right thing. She was wrong at the time to expect her husband to understand without communicating, but then she had a serious talk with him, and now she literally wrote an essay explaining her thoughts. It's like when a boy cleans his room, praising him is the right thing to do, even if you feel a little sexist doing it (because you did not praise his sister for the same thing). You have to tailor the praise and criticism to the individual. Don't be harsh at the kid for not cleaning as well and as often as his sister, and don't be harsh at the author for not communicating early enough.
- saint_fiasco 9y ago
  Just like a dirty bathroom is disgusting? The article also illustrates that people have different subjective standards for disgusting. What you find disgusting and beyond the pale is something I find insightful, subtle and interestingly wrong. To argue against things, you need to do more than call the thing disgusting.
- xor1 9y ago
  >Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. Where did this "emotional labor" term even come from? Talking to people on the phone, doing household work -- why does this qualify as "emotional behavior", and not actual, you know, labor? Considering that plenty of people do both of these things as part of their dayjob. When I hear that term, I think of having to walk on eggshells around someone who is an emotionally abusive partner.

chadlavi 9y ago

Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. I can't say I'm at all surprised to see that sort of mens-rightsism around ycombinator, though.

nxsynonym 9y ago
She's not sexist for expecting those things, she's sexist for trying to attribute her Husbands lack of those qualities to all male partners on the basis they are men. Yeah, he's lazy. But that's for him to fix - not the male gender. Also - It's not his responsibility to shoulder the burden of her emotions. It is his responsibility to get the things done that were agreed upon between the two of them. If she is not happy with the arrangement, they need to come to a new agreement. The only direct failing I see is the main example she gave, he should have just picked a damn cleaning service. Everything else is a sexist, emotion fueled diatribe about how men are emotional vacuums and don't help out enough around the house.
exergy 9y ago
There are things in life that are "beyond disgusting", but this age-old tradition going back to as long as there have been marriages scarcely makes that cut. Chomping at the bit and flying off the handle is hardly going to get you anywhere. Also, in two comments, you've failed to address the central point of the OP: What if the guy has lower standards for cleanliness? What if he doesn't mind the odd gift box not kept away for two days? The OP is saying that the woman seems not to have paused to wonder about whether they agree on the fundamental standards for "how much effort is worth putting into our living spaces" Mind you, I lean towards your side of the argument. I grew up witnessing what the woman perfectly described: there are millions of tasks that women quietly do that men demand that they be applauded for. My parents are definitely in that mould.
mmjaa 9y ago
Only men are sexist? Are you serious?
rootlocus 9y ago
You're missing the point. > In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted—giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. It's not about taking an equal share in the "emotional labor". It's about her not communicating proper intent, treating effort "ungratefully" and ultimately being disappointed for not receiving what was wanted. She wanted: > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but the fact that for once I would not be in charge of the household office work. I would not have to make the calls, get multiple quotes, research and vet each service, arrange payment and schedule the appointment. but she asked for: > one thing: a house cleaning service. That's the stereotypical "women don't say what they think".
- saint_fiasco 9y ago
  I think they don't "say what they really think" because it's hard work. I hate gifts and would rather receive cash for a present, but if I were the sort of person who wanted a specific gift I would find it annoying to have to justify it, explain what the gift really means to me on a deep level, and so on. That sort of "emotional labor" might in fact be the reason I dislike gifts, now that I think about it.
  - rootlocus 9y ago
    > but if I were the sort of person who wanted a specific gift I would find it annoying to have to justify it, explain what the gift really means to me on a deep level, and so on That's fine if you don't give a shit whether or not you receive the expected gift. But throwing a tantrum after the fact and writing an entire blog post about it is unreasonable. She (they) clearly has deeper problems than not receiving what she wanted. Those problems can't be resolved without communication.
    - saint_fiasco 9y ago
      Right. I have enough self-awareness that I don't bother asking for specific gifts. It all adds up to compromise, knowing your quirks and limitations and not trying too hard to make reality conform to your quirks. However, I think it is not fair to criticize the author for trying to do the right thing. She was wrong at the time to expect her husband to understand without communicating, but then she had a serious talk with him, and now she literally wrote an essay explaining her thoughts. It's like when a boy cleans his room, praising him is the right thing to do, even if you feel a little sexist doing it (because you did not praise his sister for the same thing). You have to tailor the praise and criticism to the individual. Don't be harsh at the kid for not cleaning as well and as often as his sister, and don't be harsh at the author for not communicating early enough.
saint_fiasco 9y ago
Just like a dirty bathroom is disgusting? The article also illustrates that people have different subjective standards for disgusting. What you find disgusting and beyond the pale is something I find insightful, subtle and interestingly wrong. To argue against things, you need to do more than call the thing disgusting.
xor1 9y ago
>Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. Where did this "emotional labor" term even come from? Talking to people on the phone, doing household work -- why does this qualify as "emotional behavior", and not actual, you know, labor? Considering that plenty of people do both of these things as part of their dayjob. When I hear that term, I think of having to walk on eggshells around someone who is an emotionally abusive partner.