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For those who have university degrees, this should be a difficult read. Next time you say to yourself, "Sure, I went to college. I know that's a privilege, but

For those who have university degrees, this should be a difficult read. Next time you say to yourself, "Sure, I went to college. I know that's a privilege, but I worked hard there and made it because of my hard work and nothing else!" Remember this article. This isn't a new phenomenon, but it's a phenomenon that's becoming more acute. Even if we ignore the adjuncts, the brilliant folks who taught us all what we know subsist on less than half of the median wage for our professions, with increasingly mediocre benefits. These are the same folks who's amazing research work is powering our industry, often with a 10 year lead time.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
It's not just the adjuncts, it is graduate students, too. I've got friends who are working on their PhDs while teaching 4-5 classes (at other locations). I considered being a TA a few years ago, but you couldn't have a second job. The stipend as a TA was $1300 a month + tuition for 40 hour weeks (may have actually been "20" hour weeks, not certain). Yeah, right. It's pretty screwed up. It's a privilege to be in higher education but it is also pretty crushing and you've got to be a soldier to deal with it. The worst part is I've almost never met anything but great people who willingly put themselves through it. It's why as an overeducated graduate student, I'm against expanding education more and more (like free community college for all). The incentives are way off currently, not sure what the solution is, but it has to change.
- legitster 9y ago
  If it includes room and board and some insurance plan, $1300 a month isn't bad? My brother had a something like that at his university and ended up saving most of it because you really don't have a lot else to spend it on. Sure, I wouldn't start a family on that, but it far surpasses what I lived off of right after college. EDIT: It looks like the article was about people late in their careers. I was assuming that adjunct faculty positions were only entry level or for grad students.
  - GlenTheMachine 9y ago
    It doesn't include room and board. It may include health insurance but you're going to pay your monthly fees out of the stipend.
  - gervase 9y ago
    Graduate stipends almost never include room and board, as far as I know. This may be different if you're in a high-rent area (UCLA, Stanford, NYU, etc), but in general, your rent comes out of that $1300. They do currently include decent health insurance, at least. No dental/vision, obviously.
    - throwaway613834 9y ago
      > They do currently include decent health insurance, at least. No dental/vision, obviously. Probably school-dependent -- I'm aware of one that does have dental at least (I forget about vision but I think it has that too).
      - tnecniv 9y ago
        I can confirm dental and vision is offered to grad students at the school I went to. It wasn't included in the stipend but it is cheap.
    - santaclaus 9y ago
      > Graduate stipends almost never include room and board, as far as I know. This may be different if you're in a high-rent area (UCLA, Stanford, NYU, etc), but in general, your rent comes out of that $1300. Nope, still gotta pay rent. Attended Columbia for grad school, had to compete in the Manhattan real estate market on < 30k a year for an apartment. > They do currently include decent health insurance, at least. Ehhhh, it was of the 'if I get hit by a car and I am in the hospital for two months, I won't go bankrupt' variety. Better than nothing, at least.
- newacct8086 9y ago
  I thought a TA appointment was 20 hours per week?
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    It actually may have been, don't mean to exaggerate. It's been awhile, can't recall and Googling isn't pulling up anything. That being said, with the nature of being a graduate student and being on campus always, if it was "20 hours" a week it was really 30+. I do have a separate university related job now and the hours are anything but consistent. But you may be correct.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    Why would you think something as specific as that would be standardised?
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  > It's not just the adjuncts, it is graduate students, too. > It's pretty screwed up. It's a privilege to be in higher education but it is also pretty crushing and you've got to be a soldier to deal with it. The worst part is I've almost never met anything but great people who willingly put themselves through it. Isn't that selecting for exactly the kind of people they want in academia though? Great people who would willingly put themselves through pain just for the sake of advancing knowledge? I'm not actually convinced that if they paid a better salary it would necessarily end up selecting for people better suited for academia -- not saying this because of lack of skills, but because if you're worried about making money the moment you start, it seems pretty plausible that you (or far people in your shoes than would feel so otherwise) would be distracted by it the whole time and not working purely for the sake of advancing your science.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    That's very possible. Surely there's some middle ground between incentives that attract too many people and underpaying dedicated talent? Even if you were to get paid more, the work is so intense and extended (grinding for years), those just attracted by money would have more attractive alternatives.
Analog24 9y ago
University of California salaries are shared publicly. I haven't actually crunched the numbers but it seems like an average salary is around 150k for professors in research based fields. That's well over half of the median salary in almost any profession.
- tptacek 9y ago
  Those are full professors, not adjuncts.
  - Analog24 9y ago
    Those are not full professors, they're assistant and associates as well. Adjunct professors are a different story b/c that is not meant to be a full time job. Adjunct professors typically teach a single course and do not do any research or participate in any administrative tasks for the department/university.
- throwaway2016a 9y ago
  This varies hugely by school. A lot of state run Universities have very competitive salaries because their reputation depends on retaining rock star professors. Adjuncts are a different story. I taught as an adjunct part time at a state school where professor made $150k. I made $5000 per course. I did it more of less for fun because I like teaching. Which is not bad for extra pay on the side but terrible if it is your only pay. Edit: as a side note, the department head told me she fought to have adjunct Comp Sci professors make more because the field is in such high demand. I am sure English adjunts at the same school make far less.
  - aswanson 9y ago
    Are compsci phds in high demand in academia, or do they suffer the same oversupply condition as the general professorial market?
    - kd0amg 9y ago
3pt14159 9y ago
In parts of Europe there the expression: "That's Texas." It roughly means "That's crazy." but with a 'Murica flavor to it. Lately, I've been finding myself frequently thinking: "That's Texas." Let me get this straight. Take a course load of 4 double semester courses per year with 200 hours of class time total in the given year. Let's double it to 400 hours just to be safe to include exam marking and office hours. A single student paying $30k per year is paying $75 / hour / student, or an annualized salary of $150k / year. True, you can't work all year round, but the average adjunct earns less than a single average student's tuition?! Where does all the money go? How is the market so broken?
- kbenson 9y ago
  Marketing. By marketing, I mean research grants, sports team equipment and training, and anything else that increases the prestige of the school (research sometimes leads to patents for the school, so there's additional benefit to that). You have to attract students willing to pay and good teachers and researchers to attract more students. The entire market is reputation based to the point where reputation is often (usually?) more important than results.
  - alexanderstears 9y ago
    But there's a problem with how that stuff is bundled. I went to a school that lavished money on its sports programs (at least relative to the team's performance) and many of the sports programs were supported (in part) by mandatory student fees. If I had the option to go to the school without paying for the team, I would have certainly done so. Though the school was still 'worth it' but dang it, I could have had more consumer surplus. Another issue (probably not the first piece of fat I'd cut) is title 9 sports - schools have to make sports programs accessible to women and men and they most commonly do this by creating women's and men's teams. I don't have a good understanding of the law but there might be a better allocation of resources if they simply opened teams to both sexes rather than creating sexually differentiated teams.
    - kbenson 9y ago
throwaway3748 9y ago
I'm a former academic. But I made a choice that all these folks can also make if they choose; I left. There are tradeoffs to any career path, and the huge glut of folks attempting to get a job in academia (even these bad adjunct jobs) are a great indication that the tradeoffs aren't particularly bad. Similarly, the professors you describe have low wages because their compensation takes other forms (freedom and security). To understand this, ask an insurance company for the price of an annuity with payout equal to a tenured professor's wage + benefits. Tenure isn't cheap.
valuearb 9y ago
I went to 4 years of university. I do not have a degree. I have help write over 100 shipping applications, and led teams as large as 45 people. Everything I've learned and use in my daily work has been self taught. University computer science taught me very little, I have spent my own time reading and learning continuously since then. The truth is, the brilliant professors are surrounded by mediocre professors, who in turn are dwarfed by the numbers of administrators and staff. At the vast majority of universities you are unlikely to get taught by anyone especially brilliant. A university education was a bit of an expensive luxury in the past, now with the internet it's far more true.
moretai 9y ago
If anyone thinks getting through college is "hard-work", they are fooling themselves. It's literally designed for morons to pass.
- sctb 9y ago
  Could you please stop violating the guidelines and post civilly and substantively instead? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
rayiner 9y ago
> These are the same folks who's amazing research work is powering our industry, often with a 10 year lead time. No they're not. STEM professors get paid quite well.

aaron-lebo 9y ago

It's not just the adjuncts, it is graduate students, too. I've got friends who are working on their PhDs while teaching 4-5 classes (at other locations). I considered being a TA a few years ago, but you couldn't have a second job. The stipend as a TA was $1300 a month + tuition for 40 hour weeks (may have actually been "20" hour weeks, not certain). Yeah, right. It's pretty screwed up. It's a privilege to be in higher education but it is also pretty crushing and you've got to be a soldier to deal with it. The worst part is I've almost never met anything but great people who willingly put themselves through it. It's why as an overeducated graduate student, I'm against expanding education more and more (like free community college for all). The incentives are way off currently, not sure what the solution is, but it has to change.

legitster 9y ago
If it includes room and board and some insurance plan, $1300 a month isn't bad? My brother had a something like that at his university and ended up saving most of it because you really don't have a lot else to spend it on. Sure, I wouldn't start a family on that, but it far surpasses what I lived off of right after college. EDIT: It looks like the article was about people late in their careers. I was assuming that adjunct faculty positions were only entry level or for grad students.
- GlenTheMachine 9y ago
  It doesn't include room and board. It may include health insurance but you're going to pay your monthly fees out of the stipend.
- gervase 9y ago
  Graduate stipends almost never include room and board, as far as I know. This may be different if you're in a high-rent area (UCLA, Stanford, NYU, etc), but in general, your rent comes out of that $1300. They do currently include decent health insurance, at least. No dental/vision, obviously.
  - throwaway613834 9y ago
    > They do currently include decent health insurance, at least. No dental/vision, obviously. Probably school-dependent -- I'm aware of one that does have dental at least (I forget about vision but I think it has that too).
    - tnecniv 9y ago
      I can confirm dental and vision is offered to grad students at the school I went to. It wasn't included in the stipend but it is cheap.
  - santaclaus 9y ago
    > Graduate stipends almost never include room and board, as far as I know. This may be different if you're in a high-rent area (UCLA, Stanford, NYU, etc), but in general, your rent comes out of that $1300. Nope, still gotta pay rent. Attended Columbia for grad school, had to compete in the Manhattan real estate market on < 30k a year for an apartment. > They do currently include decent health insurance, at least. Ehhhh, it was of the 'if I get hit by a car and I am in the hospital for two months, I won't go bankrupt' variety. Better than nothing, at least.
newacct8086 9y ago
I thought a TA appointment was 20 hours per week?
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  It actually may have been, don't mean to exaggerate. It's been awhile, can't recall and Googling isn't pulling up anything. That being said, with the nature of being a graduate student and being on campus always, if it was "20 hours" a week it was really 30+. I do have a separate university related job now and the hours are anything but consistent. But you may be correct.
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  Why would you think something as specific as that would be standardised?
throwaway613834 9y ago
> It's not just the adjuncts, it is graduate students, too. > It's pretty screwed up. It's a privilege to be in higher education but it is also pretty crushing and you've got to be a soldier to deal with it. The worst part is I've almost never met anything but great people who willingly put themselves through it. Isn't that selecting for exactly the kind of people they want in academia though? Great people who would willingly put themselves through pain just for the sake of advancing knowledge? I'm not actually convinced that if they paid a better salary it would necessarily end up selecting for people better suited for academia -- not saying this because of lack of skills, but because if you're worried about making money the moment you start, it seems pretty plausible that you (or far people in your shoes than would feel so otherwise) would be distracted by it the whole time and not working purely for the sake of advancing your science.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  That's very possible. Surely there's some middle ground between incentives that attract too many people and underpaying dedicated talent? Even if you were to get paid more, the work is so intense and extended (grinding for years), those just attracted by money would have more attractive alternatives.

Analog24 9y ago

University of California salaries are shared publicly. I haven't actually crunched the numbers but it seems like an average salary is around 150k for professors in research based fields. That's well over half of the median salary in almost any profession.

tptacek 9y ago
Those are full professors, not adjuncts.
- Analog24 9y ago
  Those are not full professors, they're assistant and associates as well. Adjunct professors are a different story b/c that is not meant to be a full time job. Adjunct professors typically teach a single course and do not do any research or participate in any administrative tasks for the department/university.
throwaway2016a 9y ago
This varies hugely by school. A lot of state run Universities have very competitive salaries because their reputation depends on retaining rock star professors. Adjuncts are a different story. I taught as an adjunct part time at a state school where professor made $150k. I made $5000 per course. I did it more of less for fun because I like teaching. Which is not bad for extra pay on the side but terrible if it is your only pay. Edit: as a side note, the department head told me she fought to have adjunct Comp Sci professors make more because the field is in such high demand. I am sure English adjunts at the same school make far less.
- aswanson 9y ago
  Are compsci phds in high demand in academia, or do they suffer the same oversupply condition as the general professorial market?
  - kd0amg 9y ago

3pt14159 9y ago

In parts of Europe there the expression: "That's Texas." It roughly means "That's crazy." but with a 'Murica flavor to it. Lately, I've been finding myself frequently thinking: "That's Texas." Let me get this straight. Take a course load of 4 double semester courses per year with 200 hours of class time total in the given year. Let's double it to 400 hours just to be safe to include exam marking and office hours. A single student paying $30k per year is paying $75 / hour / student, or an annualized salary of $150k / year. True, you can't work all year round, but the average adjunct earns less than a single average student's tuition?! Where does all the money go? How is the market so broken?

kbenson 9y ago
Marketing. By marketing, I mean research grants, sports team equipment and training, and anything else that increases the prestige of the school (research sometimes leads to patents for the school, so there's additional benefit to that). You have to attract students willing to pay and good teachers and researchers to attract more students. The entire market is reputation based to the point where reputation is often (usually?) more important than results.
- alexanderstears 9y ago
  But there's a problem with how that stuff is bundled. I went to a school that lavished money on its sports programs (at least relative to the team's performance) and many of the sports programs were supported (in part) by mandatory student fees. If I had the option to go to the school without paying for the team, I would have certainly done so. Though the school was still 'worth it' but dang it, I could have had more consumer surplus. Another issue (probably not the first piece of fat I'd cut) is title 9 sports - schools have to make sports programs accessible to women and men and they most commonly do this by creating women's and men's teams. I don't have a good understanding of the law but there might be a better allocation of resources if they simply opened teams to both sexes rather than creating sexually differentiated teams.
  - kbenson 9y ago

throwaway3748 9y ago

I'm a former academic. But I made a choice that all these folks can also make if they choose; I left. There are tradeoffs to any career path, and the huge glut of folks attempting to get a job in academia (even these bad adjunct jobs) are a great indication that the tradeoffs aren't particularly bad. Similarly, the professors you describe have low wages because their compensation takes other forms (freedom and security). To understand this, ask an insurance company for the price of an annuity with payout equal to a tenured professor's wage + benefits. Tenure isn't cheap.

valuearb 9y ago

I went to 4 years of university. I do not have a degree. I have help write over 100 shipping applications, and led teams as large as 45 people. Everything I've learned and use in my daily work has been self taught. University computer science taught me very little, I have spent my own time reading and learning continuously since then. The truth is, the brilliant professors are surrounded by mediocre professors, who in turn are dwarfed by the numbers of administrators and staff. At the vast majority of universities you are unlikely to get taught by anyone especially brilliant. A university education was a bit of an expensive luxury in the past, now with the internet it's far more true.

moretai 9y ago

If anyone thinks getting through college is "hard-work", they are fooling themselves. It's literally designed for morons to pass.

sctb 9y ago
Could you please stop violating the guidelines and post civilly and substantively instead? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

rayiner 9y ago

> These are the same folks who's amazing research work is powering our industry, often with a 10 year lead time. No they're not. STEM professors get paid quite well.