11 ms·

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each

• chadlavi 9y ago
  dude. just... no. for fuck's sake.
  • gadders 9y ago
    I'm not sure if I agree with you but your comment did make me laugh.
  • saint_fiasco 9y ago
    You are kind of exemplifying the attitude that the parent comment complains about. You have standards that are not being met, but instead of communicating clearly you just try to shame the other person. I understand communicating such simple things is not as simple as the thing would make it seem. In fact, the point of the article was that such work is unappreciated. But just because it's not appreciated it doesn't mean it's not important. You should still do it.
    • chadlavi 9y ago
      Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. I can't say I'm at all surprised to see that sort of mens-rightsism around ycombinator, though.
      • nxsynonym 9y ago
        She's not sexist for expecting those things, she's sexist for trying to attribute her Husbands lack of those qualities to all male partners on the basis they are men. Yeah, he's lazy. But that's for him to fix - not the male gender. Also - It's not his responsibility to shoulder the burden of her emotions. It is his responsibility to get the things done that were agreed upon between the two of them. If she is not happy with the arrangement, they need to come to a new agreement. The only direct failing I see is the main example she gave, he should have just picked a damn cleaning service. Everything else is a sexist, emotion fueled diatribe about how men are emotional vacuums and don't help out enough around the house.
      • exergy 9y ago
        There are things in life that are "beyond disgusting", but this age-old tradition going back to as long as there have been marriages scarcely makes that cut. Chomping at the bit and flying off the handle is hardly going to get you anywhere. Also, in two comments, you've failed to address the central point of the OP: What if the guy has lower standards for cleanliness? What if he doesn't mind the odd gift box not kept away for two days? The OP is saying that the woman seems not to have paused to wonder about whether they agree on the fundamental standards for "how much effort is worth putting into our living spaces" Mind you, I lean towards your side of the argument. I grew up witnessing what the woman perfectly described: there are millions of tasks that women quietly do that men demand that they be applauded for. My parents are definitely in that mould.
      • mmjaa 9y ago
        Only men are sexist? Are you serious?
      • 9y ago
• EarthIsHome 9y ago
  The author provides several examples of emotional labor. The author also tries to explain to her husband (who she says he hasn't fully grasped) that she doesn't want him to clean the bathrooms for mere cleanliness, but for easing the burden of managing the cleanliness of the household.
  • mmjaa 9y ago
    She fails to understand how its not his fault that her standards are not being met, and that he's failing in his insubordinate duties by not meeting her standards - yet takes no responsibility for having adequately constructed a consensus between the two of them over the issue of household management - "because its the womans job to manage the household". Sorry, but this is nonsense. Men are just as capable of having a clean house as anyone else - we ultimately succeed in having a great household 'emotionally' when all parties are of equal agency as each other. In this story, I see only un-equal agency, and I believe that is the true cause of her upset .. Let him decide on the standards for the household, independently and under his own determination, and stop undermining the relationship by assuming greater authority over the issue. Otherwise, you have totalitarianism in the household, and no man - nor woman - really deserves that.
• nxsynonym 9y ago
  >>There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not communicate those expectations in a way that forms consensus - instead, opting to 'shame the man' for not having the same standards. Not to mention the 'emotional labor' of working full time to keep a family afloat. The only part I agree with the author on is that the man should be keeping his house running and in working order. If it was not part of their division of labor agreement (aka marriage) that she would maintain the house as well as raise the kids (I'm assuming, based on what she wrote) - then he needs to step up by doing those things himself or hiring someone else to do. Which is what she asked for originally. Everything else is her misusing a term to justify her emotions and argument and shaming her husband for not fixing how she feels. The biggest issue, as you said, is the lack of communication.
  • EarthIsHome 9y ago
    I think you and the parent comment have completely missed her point. > Not to mention the 'emotional labor' of working full time to keep a family afloat. She mentions this exact same defense that many men say. You also don't know their income breakdown; she has a job, she's freelanced, while also making household and familial decisions.
    • nxsynonym 9y ago
      She doesn't have a point other than "I want more help around the house and my husband won't listen". That's not a failing of anything other than the husband's ability to listen and her ability to be upfront with her expectations. Income breakdown is irrelevant.
      • mercutio2 9y ago
        This particular author’s arguments are irritating, self-centered, and over-generalized, so I’m not really defending the piece. But the author is quite explicit that her husband does any task asked; what she’s asking for is that he take more initiative and not require praise when he does so. I agree with many other commenters that coming to consensus on “everyone in the family is expected to spend 2 minutes every evening putting away things they’ve taken out without requiring nagging or praise” is a very low bar and should not be a hard communication problem to solve in a healthy relationship.
• brookside 9y ago
  Many couples haven't even thought to communicate about this because the unconscious social conditional is so strong. It's an unreflected assumption that the female and male are in charge of certain duties.
• gyardley 9y ago
  In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almost always a male problem in our society, I'm also gobsmacked that you'd call it sexist. It's about as sexist as calling gun violence or any other widely gendered thing a male problem - there's exceptions out there, but it's not worth being pedantic about.
  • oijoinoifsnf 9y ago
    It's weird that the Internet is the first place to say things like: "Maybe women don't WANT to be in tech", "there are biological differences", etc. but also turn around and complain that it's sexist to imply men (on average) have difficulties with emotional communication.
    • dleslie 9y ago
      It's almost like the internet is a platform where many different voices are heard.
      • sblom 9y ago
        Or at least where many different voices are published. :)
    • turc1656 9y ago
      The word "want" describes desire, willingness, and a level of interest. Saying someone or a group of people are not interested in doing something is entirely different than saying they are less capable. The proper equivalent to "men (on average) have difficulties with emotional communication" for the example you gave would be "women are not as naturally capable as men when it comes to tech jobs."
      • 9y ago
• JPKab 9y ago
  If my wife wrote this article, I'd be furious. I agree: This article is blatantly sexist, and the author is essentially complaining about her partner not telepathically reading her mind to "sense" her completely arbitrary standards for cleanliness in the home. She makes a big point of how she "controls the budget", and yet I have a strong suspicion that she wouldn't allow her husband to do so if he offered. Let's be clear: Socks laying on the floor doesn't affect people's health. The standards of cleanliness adopted by western women (starting in the middle of the 20th century) were created by a patriarchal consumerist advertising industry working to market new chemical household cleaners. They are, scientifically, wholly excessive and even counterproductive. I say this as someone who keeps my home clean and uncluttered, and washes the dishes and cleans the kitchen every night. Edit: The marketing psychology used for this prays on people who measure higher on tests for neurotic tendencies. From a statistical perspective, the distribution for women on this trait is significantly to the right of men. For more examples of "purity" marketing to people higher on the neuroticism scale, see numerous illogical products that are environmentally damaging: bottled water, soap with "cleansing beads", "flushable" wipes, etc, etc. If I wrote a blog post ranting and raving about how my wife never wants to manage the maintenance of our vehicles, and how I'm emotionally tired of trying to get her to keep track of the mileage of her vehicle to ensure she gets an oil change, I'd be called a whiner at best and sexist at worst. This is the kind of stuff that makes me tire of the self-proclaimed Northeastern intelligentsia. You can package this up as a well-written, intellectual essay all you want. It doesn't change the fact that this is no different than the person at lunch whining about their spouse to their coworkers while they all roll their eyes.
  • EarthIsHome 9y ago
    > Socks laying on the floor doesn't affect people's health. You're missing the point. She mentions that the clean house isn't the goal, the clean house would "simply be a bonus" > complaining about her partner not telepathically reading her mind to "sense" her completely arbitrary standards She also makes the point that she has told him what she wants.
    • brighteyes 9y ago
• bryanlarsen 9y ago
  > simply don't communicate with each other. It takes two to communicate. That's the real emotional labour in the article: trying to communicate when the other party isn't listening.
• robg 9y ago
  Emotion itself is a communication platform and many times how you feel is not so easily communicated in ways that can be easily worked out.
• trgn 9y ago
  Airing her grievances online is immature and isn't going to help their situation, there's a good chance her husband is going to get more defensive about it. That tactical mistake notwithstanding, she's on the whole quite correct though. She says: > When my husband brushes out tangles before bedtime, he needs his efforts noticed and congratulated That's such a common attitude. He needs to just do the damn work already without being such a baby about it. Her complaint is that he needs to "see" work. Don't leave the gift wrap out in the middle of the room, but put it back. Hear a squeaky door hinge, just fix it. That kind of thing. The fact that he doesn't, and the fact that he needs to be told time and again, can of course be a source of stress. If he doesn't recognize that truly, then he's being obtuse. Most likely though, it all happens more in a grey zone. Not that he doesn't realize leaving the gift wrap out is an inconvenience, but that he doesn't care enough to put it back. Not necessarily because of malice, but this soup of lazyness, unattentiveness, and perhaps, every once in a while, a smidgen of malice, you know, that little urge to needle other people sometime, especially nagging ones. It really isn't much about failure of communication. From the article, they talked about it plenty. It's in a national publication now. He knows she wants him to be proactive, instead of wait-and-see. It's about a mismatch between habits and expectations. There are many ways this can resolve. Either she learns to live with it. Or he changes. Either of those could both be happy solutions to their issue, with both parties finding contentment. But his half-assed approach of 'well, just ask me, I'm happy to do it", and then gloat or moan about it afterwards, is obviously not doing it.
  • ThrustVectoring 9y ago
    >there's a good chance her husband is going to get more defensive about it. She complains in the article that her husband gets defensive in these conversations - odds are she's simply can't see how her speech gets perceived as an attack. Especially because she very quickly blames Patriarchy for his defensiveness rather than taking an honest look at communication patterns. Example: >My husband, despite his good nature and admirable intentions, still responds to criticism in a very patriarchal way. Forcing him to see emotional labor for the work it is feels like a personal attack on his character. Criticizing someone to force them to see things your way is completely unacceptable to me. I might have high standards for personality in a life partner, but yeah, no, I'd rather be single than put up with that.
• dnautics 9y ago
  I'm male. I have a female roommate. (We're not involved) I do almost all of the dishes, I take out the trash, I clean the kitchen and the public bathroom, and tidy the dining space and wash the floors, and I harbor zero resentment towards her. I just value cleanliness more, so I should expect to pay a premium (in labor) for that preference. I also don't require any praise for what I do. The cleanliness is it's own reward.
  • klipt 9y ago
    No man, she's making you do unpaid labor because of her deep seated sexism towards men! /s
  • shiven 9y ago
    I flipped your and your roommates genders in my head, and was immediately incensed about the continued repression of women in our society - looks the program is working as intended. Um hmm.
    • dnautics 9y ago
      Why were you incensed? I'm totally fine with our arrangement; it's just a consequence of basic supply and demand and the fact that no one owes me amything.
      • krapsna 9y ago
        I think the comment was meant to draw attention to today's societal programming. It seems very likely that if a woman were to say the same thing one might be inclined to view it as an example her internalized misogyny and symptom of the systematic oppression of women in general, rather than a human being who derived satisfaction from keeping their living space tidy.