4 ms·

"are notoriously reclusive—perhaps because extreme wealth is considered tacky." No, Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth. (Ed

"are notoriously reclusive—perhaps because extreme wealth is considered tacky." No, Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth. (Edit: admittedly, most 'nouveau riche' North Americans are fairly tacky in their expenditures. Some spectacularly so. I do actually find it borderline offensive, some of the Instagram rubbish. Being 'showy' with wealth is a sure sign of lack of real nobility) In Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game' - someone has wealth because they must have 'taken' it, or one of their ancestors had. In America it's a little more 1+1=3, even though that's often on the case. Particularly in the valley. Bing Gordon had some funny things to say about that - even American East Coast culture (i.e. banking) is very much zero sum. The Valley, despite it's shades of narcissism is also very social in some ways. Think of open source. It's a hugely important concept. And it's very much 1+1=3, I think. And yet, immensely wealthy Google and others still treats 'any non essential staff' with low pay, like a 'lower caste'. (I find sometimes we think our 'free software' contributions are 'noble and virtuous' and then we forget that it's our actual actions in life that matter as well...) I like German culture - and yes, it's communitarian, but also very classist. The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen - and it's kids of well off parents. Uni is 'free' but they send fewer kids there. In Austria - it used to be up until actually quite recently that a CEO who ran his business into the ground could face jail time, not kidding. 'Failure' is something that stuck with your identity forever. 'Failed business' = 'you're finished'. I don't think Germanic culture has yet figured out the art of embracing failure. The 'math' on failure is hard when invariably investors lose money.

SilasX 9y ago
I remember a HN comment a while ago that explained how German/Austrian law makes a lot more sense under the model of "first priority is protecting the public from financial scams". So it's understandable that they'd err on the side of lumping (some) legitimate business failures with the scams.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  ""first priority is protecting the public from financial scams"" I have German ancestry and would say it runs deeper. It's an inherent agri/communitarian mindset. 'Practicality first'. 'Value for the dollar'. 'Frugality'. 'Risk aversion'. 'Moderation'. etc. etc.. look at how different Merkel is from other world leaders ...
WalterBright 9y ago
> Being 'showy' with wealth is a sure sign of lack of real nobility Having toured a lot of very ornate castles and palaces and historical buildings, Europeans who built them and furnished them clearly liked to show off their wealth!
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  Those castles are de-facto statements of the power of the state, not just wealth. The most 'grand' bits of architecture are the Cathedrals, and they are contributions to something intangibly greater. The Cathedral in Cologne took 700 years to build - imagine putting your 'life's energy' into that project :) And for every 'ostentatious display of power' - there are 100 bits of beyond-the-pale amazing things hidden away. The most beautiful parts of Venice are inside the houses. Jaw-dropping beauty and extravagance ... not for public display.
andreasklinger 9y ago
re in Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game': Personally disagree here - but i don't know where you have those facts from so i can't really properly dispute. re Opensource: A ton of open source actually comes from Europe. In the valley a few large corporates finance developers working on open source (eg facebook, etc) but i wouldn't really consider this charity. It's a hiring and branding pipeline re Failure => Prison for those who are interested: The situation this often happens/happened is called `negligence` When either a) social security of employees is not paid (as in you "risk" their lives) or b) you handle sums that are far beyond your companies size (eg concert promoters have to prepay ticket sales to companies that are N times their own profits) The laws changed here quite a bit but it's still a possibility. Please note that in the same country you can go to personal bankruptcy - meaning agreeing on a total sum of max personal damages (not that this is i wish on anyone but it's a (extreme) downside protection) Re failure overall: It comes down to game dynamics. Europe doesnt favor "fail fast" because it the upside is smaller compared to the US (fragmented market => slower acceleration). So with the same downside risk but lower upside risk averse strategies are dominated historically. This (thx to Internet => global access) changes.
pvg 9y ago
Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth There's a lot more to Europe than your (seemingly cartoonish) version of German culture.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  Uhhh, I lived in Germany for quite some time (and have German heritage and German speaking family), thanks very much.
  - pvg 9y ago
    That doesn't make you right, nor does it turn your impressions of Germany into something sensible about 'Europeans'.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      A) Your ad-hominem is out of line. B) You know nothing about me. Not that it matters: not only have I lived in Germany, I have lived in France for many years, I earned a Graduate Degree in Europe, worked for the European government (EIB), 'lived in Luxembourg' in all practical reality, speak three European languages, and visited nearly every European country. In addition to having lived in two very different American states for several years, and have visited more than 1/2 of them, and visit the USA regularly. C) Not only am I entitled to my opinions, in this case they're neither novel nor contentious, and they are more or less correct.
      - pvg 9y ago
        What exactly is the 'ad hominem' here? I also don't really need to know anything about you to think the opinions you are so fondly entitled to are rather shallow generalizations. You can be president of the EU and "Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth" would still be a shallow generalization.
musage 9y ago
> In Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game' - someone has wealth because they must have 'taken' it, or one of their ancestors had. Prosperity, well being, ideas etc. those are not zero sum games, but ownership of things can be, and money kind of always is. The only way (for normal people and corporations) to "make" money is to transfer it from somewhere else, after all. > The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen - and it's kids of well off parents. Yes, you have to finish a certain schooling level first, but evening schools etc. do exist. You can get the qualifications to go to uni as an adult, too. I'm not saying the education shouldn't be a lot better, or that rich parents don't try to get their kids into schools with other rich kids and whatnot. But the way you phrased it kind of sounds like the state picks rich kids for uni, and I'd really like to hear more context. Not saying you're wrong, maybe I'm just not aware.
tscs37 9y ago
>I don't think Germanic culture has yet figured out the art of embracing failure. I don't think this is quite true. If I fail my business, I'm liable to some extend for it. I could loose huge sums of money but I also have the reassurance that the social safety net will prevent the worst. Plus, if worst comes to worst, I can declare personal bankcruptcy, which allows me to manage my debts without loosing my entire incoming and going out debt free at the end of a couple years (7 if I'm recall correctly) >The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen The state does not. The uni does. What counts are your grades when you finish previous schools, ie, you well you did in education and that only when there are more student applications than they have room for. There are certainly kids of poor families too, many grants, even government ones, allow anyone to go to university without worrying too much about money. >Uni is 'free' but they send fewer kids there. It should be noted that the base level compared to the US is higher and the german school system specifically is focused on getting kids into a job as soon as possible and with the lowest failure rate possible.

SilasX 9y ago

I remember a HN comment a while ago that explained how German/Austrian law makes a lot more sense under the model of "first priority is protecting the public from financial scams". So it's understandable that they'd err on the side of lumping (some) legitimate business failures with the scams.

alexasmyths 9y ago
""first priority is protecting the public from financial scams"" I have German ancestry and would say it runs deeper. It's an inherent agri/communitarian mindset. 'Practicality first'. 'Value for the dollar'. 'Frugality'. 'Risk aversion'. 'Moderation'. etc. etc.. look at how different Merkel is from other world leaders ...

WalterBright 9y ago

> Being 'showy' with wealth is a sure sign of lack of real nobility Having toured a lot of very ornate castles and palaces and historical buildings, Europeans who built them and furnished them clearly liked to show off their wealth!

alexasmyths 9y ago
Those castles are de-facto statements of the power of the state, not just wealth. The most 'grand' bits of architecture are the Cathedrals, and they are contributions to something intangibly greater. The Cathedral in Cologne took 700 years to build - imagine putting your 'life's energy' into that project :) And for every 'ostentatious display of power' - there are 100 bits of beyond-the-pale amazing things hidden away. The most beautiful parts of Venice are inside the houses. Jaw-dropping beauty and extravagance ... not for public display.

andreasklinger 9y ago

re in Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game': Personally disagree here - but i don't know where you have those facts from so i can't really properly dispute. re Opensource: A ton of open source actually comes from Europe. In the valley a few large corporates finance developers working on open source (eg facebook, etc) but i wouldn't really consider this charity. It's a hiring and branding pipeline re Failure => Prison for those who are interested: The situation this often happens/happened is called `negligence` When either a) social security of employees is not paid (as in you "risk" their lives) or b) you handle sums that are far beyond your companies size (eg concert promoters have to prepay ticket sales to companies that are N times their own profits) The laws changed here quite a bit but it's still a possibility. Please note that in the same country you can go to personal bankruptcy - meaning agreeing on a total sum of max personal damages (not that this is i wish on anyone but it's a (extreme) downside protection) Re failure overall: It comes down to game dynamics. Europe doesnt favor "fail fast" because it the upside is smaller compared to the US (fragmented market => slower acceleration). So with the same downside risk but lower upside risk averse strategies are dominated historically. This (thx to Internet => global access) changes.

pvg 9y ago

Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth There's a lot more to Europe than your (seemingly cartoonish) version of German culture.

alexasmyths 9y ago
Uhhh, I lived in Germany for quite some time (and have German heritage and German speaking family), thanks very much.
- pvg 9y ago
  That doesn't make you right, nor does it turn your impressions of Germany into something sensible about 'Europeans'.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    A) Your ad-hominem is out of line. B) You know nothing about me. Not that it matters: not only have I lived in Germany, I have lived in France for many years, I earned a Graduate Degree in Europe, worked for the European government (EIB), 'lived in Luxembourg' in all practical reality, speak three European languages, and visited nearly every European country. In addition to having lived in two very different American states for several years, and have visited more than 1/2 of them, and visit the USA regularly. C) Not only am I entitled to my opinions, in this case they're neither novel nor contentious, and they are more or less correct.
    - pvg 9y ago
      What exactly is the 'ad hominem' here? I also don't really need to know anything about you to think the opinions you are so fondly entitled to are rather shallow generalizations. You can be president of the EU and "Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth" would still be a shallow generalization.

musage 9y ago

> In Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game' - someone has wealth because they must have 'taken' it, or one of their ancestors had. Prosperity, well being, ideas etc. those are not zero sum games, but ownership of things can be, and money kind of always is. The only way (for normal people and corporations) to "make" money is to transfer it from somewhere else, after all. > The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen - and it's kids of well off parents. Yes, you have to finish a certain schooling level first, but evening schools etc. do exist. You can get the qualifications to go to uni as an adult, too. I'm not saying the education shouldn't be a lot better, or that rich parents don't try to get their kids into schools with other rich kids and whatnot. But the way you phrased it kind of sounds like the state picks rich kids for uni, and I'd really like to hear more context. Not saying you're wrong, maybe I'm just not aware.

tscs37 9y ago

>I don't think Germanic culture has yet figured out the art of embracing failure. I don't think this is quite true. If I fail my business, I'm liable to some extend for it. I could loose huge sums of money but I also have the reassurance that the social safety net will prevent the worst. Plus, if worst comes to worst, I can declare personal bankcruptcy, which allows me to manage my debts without loosing my entire incoming and going out debt free at the end of a couple years (7 if I'm recall correctly) >The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen The state does not. The uni does. What counts are your grades when you finish previous schools, ie, you well you did in education and that only when there are more student applications than they have room for. There are certainly kids of poor families too, many grants, even government ones, allow anyone to go to university without worrying too much about money. >Uni is 'free' but they send fewer kids there. It should be noted that the base level compared to the US is higher and the german school system specifically is focused on getting kids into a job as soon as possible and with the lowest failure rate possible.