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I keep hoping that FaceID will also get FacePassword, where you have to show one or more expressions in order. Then it becomes a password, and the police can't

I keep hoping that FaceID will also get FacePassword, where you have to show one or more expressions in order. Then it becomes a password, and the police can't force you to change your expression.

dragonwriter 9y ago
To the extent the police can legally compel you to provide access to a device, the means by which that access is protected does not impede their legal capability to do it and impose consequences for non-compliance.
- mbgerring 9y ago
  That's the thing -- the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device, but if they can get it without you having to give them anything, by, say, pointing the phone at your face, it's fair game. I don't have time to look up the court precedents about this, but that's my understanding of the current state of the law.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    I misread the upthread comment as implying that FaceID “passwords” were more legally secure than regular passwords, not just more legally secure than plain FaceID. I agree that the description you provide is generally correct.
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    > the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device Your understanding of the current state of the law is very wrong. There's a person in the US [0] who has been in jail for multiple years now without being tried / convicted due to refusing to provide access to their devices. There's another case with a warrant[1] allowing an officer to force someone to unlock their phone protected by TouchID. I have also heard multiple US states have enacted laws specifically addressing device unlock, but I don't have links to them at the moment. [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-years-for-refusing-to-decrypt-drives-will-he-ever-get-out/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-ye... [1] http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant.pdf http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant....
    - mbgerring 9y ago
      I don't think "very wrong" is a fair assesment. Here's a summary of current law (as of 2016) concerning cell phone passwords: https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force-you-to-unlock-your-phone-with-a-fingerprint/ https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force...
      - jsjohnst 9y ago
        > the police can't legally compel you That is a very wrong statement. I don’t care if things changed a year or more ago, it doesn’t make it any less wrong now. I of course meant no offense to you, but legal statements which are wrong could easily mislead someone and the emphasis is necessary. Apologies if offense was taken!
whistlerbrk 9y ago
Or better yet. Permanent lock or deletion of data if you perform a sequence of facial features you can set. Blink blink smile nod blink
mtgx 9y ago
That's a pretty fantastic idea. I think even courts will find that the government can't compel you to change your face expression, as they tend to do that for anything the government can't physically force you to do anyway. For instance, they say the government forcing you to unlock with your fingerprint is legal, because the government's agents can use force to put your finger on the phone anyway. So it's legal. But the government can't force you to "remember" your password. So trying to do that is illegal.
- URSpider94 9y ago
  Oh no, they can compel you to enter your password. By which I mean, if you don’t enter it, they can hold you in contempt of court indefinitely (possibly even for longer than you would be held if you submitted to the search and were found guilty based on the evidence and received the maximum sentence).

I keep hoping that FaceID will also get FacePassword, where you have to show one or more expressions in order. Then it becomes a password, and the police can't force you to change your expression.

dragonwriter 9y ago

To the extent the police can legally compel you to provide access to a device, the means by which that access is protected does not impede their legal capability to do it and impose consequences for non-compliance.

mbgerring 9y ago
That's the thing -- the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device, but if they can get it without you having to give them anything, by, say, pointing the phone at your face, it's fair game. I don't have time to look up the court precedents about this, but that's my understanding of the current state of the law.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  I misread the upthread comment as implying that FaceID “passwords” were more legally secure than regular passwords, not just more legally secure than plain FaceID. I agree that the description you provide is generally correct.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  > the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device Your understanding of the current state of the law is very wrong. There's a person in the US [0] who has been in jail for multiple years now without being tried / convicted due to refusing to provide access to their devices. There's another case with a warrant[1] allowing an officer to force someone to unlock their phone protected by TouchID. I have also heard multiple US states have enacted laws specifically addressing device unlock, but I don't have links to them at the moment. [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-years-for-refusing-to-decrypt-drives-will-he-ever-get-out/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-ye... [1] http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant.pdf http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant....
  - mbgerring 9y ago
    I don't think "very wrong" is a fair assesment. Here's a summary of current law (as of 2016) concerning cell phone passwords: https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force-you-to-unlock-your-phone-with-a-fingerprint/ https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force...
    - jsjohnst 9y ago
      > the police can't legally compel you That is a very wrong statement. I don’t care if things changed a year or more ago, it doesn’t make it any less wrong now. I of course meant no offense to you, but legal statements which are wrong could easily mislead someone and the emphasis is necessary. Apologies if offense was taken!

whistlerbrk 9y ago

Or better yet. Permanent lock or deletion of data if you perform a sequence of facial features you can set. Blink blink smile nod blink

mtgx 9y ago

That's a pretty fantastic idea. I think even courts will find that the government can't compel you to change your face expression, as they tend to do that for anything the government can't physically force you to do anyway. For instance, they say the government forcing you to unlock with your fingerprint is legal, because the government's agents can use force to put your finger on the phone anyway. So it's legal. But the government can't force you to "remember" your password. So trying to do that is illegal.

URSpider94 9y ago
Oh no, they can compel you to enter your password. By which I mean, if you don’t enter it, they can hold you in contempt of court indefinitely (possibly even for longer than you would be held if you submitted to the search and were found guilty based on the evidence and received the maximum sentence).