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> It sounds like fpgaminer's argument is that biometric keys can't be compromised because of "liveness tests". You're arrested, and the cops hold the phone up

> It sounds like fpgaminer's argument is that biometric keys can't be compromised because of "liveness tests". You're arrested, and the cops hold the phone up to your face to unlock it. That's a pretty big compromise, and there's literally nothing you can do to prevent it.

kickling 9y ago
I heard in another comment in this thread it has focus detection, so you would have to look at the phone for it to unlock. Can not find any other source of this though.
- djrogers 9y ago
  > Can not find any other source of this though. It's in the marketing materials for the phone, was mentioned multiple times on stage during the introduction, and is in the introduction to the whitepaper that this entire HN thread is about. So yeah - a couple of sources are available...
coldtea 9y ago
The same holds true for physical keys. If you're arrested then the cops can tie you, grab the keys and unlock your door "and there's literally nothing you can do to prevent it.". Also some guy can just make a copy your key (pretty trivial) -- heck people can even break your door bypassing the key altogether.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > The same holds true for physical keys. Nobody's saying that home security is good. The point the parent was making is that, even with a "liveness test", compared to other biometric identification, this is a regression from fingerprint-based authentication for the iPhone.
  - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
    How is it a regression? What kind of scenario exists where the cops can force you to FaceID unlock your phone, but not TouchID unlock it? You think they can force you to look at it ("engage" with it) but not touch the phone?
    - jsjohnst 9y ago
      Technically I could see FaceID being marginally more secure in one very specific edge case... If you are asleep. With TouchID, all that is needed is to push their finger to the phone. With FaceID, your eyes would need to be open (theoretically, let's see in practice).
      - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
        Sure, for some people. I'd be surprised if you could unlock my phone with my hand without waking me up (light stomach sleeper). Honestly, the easiest attack would just be to ask me about my dogs. 99.99% chance I'll unlock my phone, pull up pictures and show them to you (easy grab) or just hand you the phone and let you browse through them.
        jsjohnst 9y ago
        I’m a very heavy sleeper and a paranoid person, so unless I’m home (which I would be woken before you could get to my phone), I usually disable TouchID by rebooting (or now hitting power button repeatedly).
- tuxxy 9y ago
  Yes, but the police have to get warrants. If they fail to get a warrant, then it's inadmissable in court. In the phone case, they don't need a warrant if your authentication method is literally your face.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Yes, but the police have to get warrants. If they fail to get a warrant, then it's inadmissible in court. Depends on the country. Not everywhere, including western Europe, is this true.
  - fastball 9y ago
    Searching through your phone seems like an action that would require a warrant.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Requiring a warrant seems like an action many cops could not care less about nevertheless. For one, there are tons of loopholes, from border searches to "evidence of criminal activity" (dead easy to "prove" for a black/latino/poor person and have the court agree), and unless you can afford a good lawyer, good luck trying to prove your rights were violated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrantless_searches_in_the_United_States#Exceptions_to_the_search_warrant_requirement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrantless_searches_in_the_Un... http://www.npr.org/2011/05/16/136368744/in-warrantless-search-case-top-court-rules-for-police http://www.npr.org/2011/05/16/136368744/in-warrantless-searc... Not to mention that warrants are not that difficult to obtain either -- except in the movies.
  - rossbmiller 9y ago
    Keys and faces don't really matter. It's a 3-part test. 1. You are a government agent 2. You are on a quest for evidence 3. You are searching in a place where there exists a reasonable expectation of privacy If all 3 of these are true, you need a warrant (at least in the US). Doesn't matter if the keys, or in this case your face, are right there. The fact that you locked your phone with something the cop doesn't normally have is enough to require a warrant.
- test001only 9y ago
  But with passwords that is not the case.
oneplusone 9y ago
It requires you to look at the phone to unlock. Close your eyes or look away and it won't unlock.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > It requires you to look at the phone to unlock. Close your eyes or look away and it won't unlock. Yeah, I'm going to say that this is an absolutely unrealistic expectation to have of someone who's just gotten detained and is concerned about having the contents of their phone viewed by law enforcement. "Make sure that you don't open your eyes at any point in the direction where they might be holding your phone" is completely unactionable.
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    > is completely unactionable. As is the assumption you won't be forced to touch your finger to the phone. I can assure you, if someone wants into your phone bad enough, they will break your fingers if thats what it takes.
new299 9y ago
It doesn't activate unless you look at the lock screen, so you can just refuse to look at it? https://www.wired.com/story/iphone-x-faceid-security/ https://www.wired.com/story/iphone-x-faceid-security/
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > It doesn't activate unless you look at the lock screen, so you can just refuse to look at it? Have you ever been detained? As far as I'm concerned, "refuse to look at it" is useful as a prevention tactic as not having any lock at all.
  - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
    By that metric it is just as useful as "I won't give you my password" and "I won't touch the phone" https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      [deleted]
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        The de jure position should, if really established as true, be readily supportable by appropriate citation, so I don't feel much need to extend trust.
  - new299 9y ago
    huh... is touchID more useful? Is a PIN more useful? I'm honestly curious, what's the difference between "I refuse to look at my phone" and "I refuse to enter my PIN" when being detained?
oldsj 9y ago
Well there is something, you can close your eyes at least.
AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/17/16161758/ios-11-touch-id-disable-emergency-services-lock https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/17/16161758/ios-11-touch-id-... is how you work around that issue. Keep in mind, you don't need to refuse to TouchID/FaceID forever, just for the timeout (which I do wish was configurable -- I think one hour is reasonable).
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  Here's the sequence of events: 1. You're walking, with your phone in your pocket. 2. Suddenly, a cop accosts you. You don't have time to react. 3. They detain and restrain you (with handcuffs or otherwise) 4. They pat you down and find your phone 5. They hold up your phone to your face to unlock it I know that people who've never been detained or interacted much with cops think that this is a completely unlikely situation, or easily avoidable, but I promise you it is not. TouchID isn't great from a law enforcement perspective, but it's light years ahead of FaceID.
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    As someone who has been stopped/questioned/detained before domestically and internationally (as well as at border checkpoints) as well as mugged, I can assure you that touch vs look is pretty much the same (definitively not light years in difference). The solution is to be proactive. If you are going to walk down the street in an at risk area, you hit the power button five times. If you are about to go through a CBP checkpoint, then do the same. When you go to sleep, do the same (admittedly TouchID is more susceptible here than FaceID). FaceID / TouchID are a "convenience" to be used when you are comfortable with your surroundings. Can you be caught off guard even when you are paranoid? Of course, nothing is ever guaranteed in life, except death and taxes as the saying goes!
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > The solution is to be proactive. If you are going to walk down the street in an at risk area, you hit the power button five times. If you are about to go through a CBP checkpoint, then do the same. You and I have incredibly different experiences of policing and detention if, for you, "be proactive when you're at-risk" is appreciably different from saying "don't use FaceID ever".

kickling 9y ago

I heard in another comment in this thread it has focus detection, so you would have to look at the phone for it to unlock. Can not find any other source of this though.

djrogers 9y ago
> Can not find any other source of this though. It's in the marketing materials for the phone, was mentioned multiple times on stage during the introduction, and is in the introduction to the whitepaper that this entire HN thread is about. So yeah - a couple of sources are available...

coldtea 9y ago

The same holds true for physical keys. If you're arrested then the cops can tie you, grab the keys and unlock your door "and there's literally nothing you can do to prevent it.". Also some guy can just make a copy your key (pretty trivial) -- heck people can even break your door bypassing the key altogether.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> The same holds true for physical keys. Nobody's saying that home security is good. The point the parent was making is that, even with a "liveness test", compared to other biometric identification, this is a regression from fingerprint-based authentication for the iPhone.
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  How is it a regression? What kind of scenario exists where the cops can force you to FaceID unlock your phone, but not TouchID unlock it? You think they can force you to look at it ("engage" with it) but not touch the phone?
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    Technically I could see FaceID being marginally more secure in one very specific edge case... If you are asleep. With TouchID, all that is needed is to push their finger to the phone. With FaceID, your eyes would need to be open (theoretically, let's see in practice).
    - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
      Sure, for some people. I'd be surprised if you could unlock my phone with my hand without waking me up (light stomach sleeper). Honestly, the easiest attack would just be to ask me about my dogs. 99.99% chance I'll unlock my phone, pull up pictures and show them to you (easy grab) or just hand you the phone and let you browse through them.
      - jsjohnst 9y ago
        I’m a very heavy sleeper and a paranoid person, so unless I’m home (which I would be woken before you could get to my phone), I usually disable TouchID by rebooting (or now hitting power button repeatedly).
tuxxy 9y ago
Yes, but the police have to get warrants. If they fail to get a warrant, then it's inadmissable in court. In the phone case, they don't need a warrant if your authentication method is literally your face.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Yes, but the police have to get warrants. If they fail to get a warrant, then it's inadmissible in court. Depends on the country. Not everywhere, including western Europe, is this true.
- fastball 9y ago
  Searching through your phone seems like an action that would require a warrant.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Requiring a warrant seems like an action many cops could not care less about nevertheless. For one, there are tons of loopholes, from border searches to "evidence of criminal activity" (dead easy to "prove" for a black/latino/poor person and have the court agree), and unless you can afford a good lawyer, good luck trying to prove your rights were violated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrantless_searches_in_the_United_States#Exceptions_to_the_search_warrant_requirement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrantless_searches_in_the_Un... http://www.npr.org/2011/05/16/136368744/in-warrantless-search-case-top-court-rules-for-police http://www.npr.org/2011/05/16/136368744/in-warrantless-searc... Not to mention that warrants are not that difficult to obtain either -- except in the movies.
- rossbmiller 9y ago
  Keys and faces don't really matter. It's a 3-part test. 1. You are a government agent 2. You are on a quest for evidence 3. You are searching in a place where there exists a reasonable expectation of privacy If all 3 of these are true, you need a warrant (at least in the US). Doesn't matter if the keys, or in this case your face, are right there. The fact that you locked your phone with something the cop doesn't normally have is enough to require a warrant.
test001only 9y ago
But with passwords that is not the case.

oneplusone 9y ago

It requires you to look at the phone to unlock. Close your eyes or look away and it won't unlock.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> It requires you to look at the phone to unlock. Close your eyes or look away and it won't unlock. Yeah, I'm going to say that this is an absolutely unrealistic expectation to have of someone who's just gotten detained and is concerned about having the contents of their phone viewed by law enforcement. "Make sure that you don't open your eyes at any point in the direction where they might be holding your phone" is completely unactionable.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  > is completely unactionable. As is the assumption you won't be forced to touch your finger to the phone. I can assure you, if someone wants into your phone bad enough, they will break your fingers if thats what it takes.

new299 9y ago

It doesn't activate unless you look at the lock screen, so you can just refuse to look at it? https://www.wired.com/story/iphone-x-faceid-security/ https://www.wired.com/story/iphone-x-faceid-security/

chimeracoder 9y ago
> It doesn't activate unless you look at the lock screen, so you can just refuse to look at it? Have you ever been detained? As far as I'm concerned, "refuse to look at it" is useful as a prevention tactic as not having any lock at all.
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  By that metric it is just as useful as "I won't give you my password" and "I won't touch the phone" https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    [deleted]
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      The de jure position should, if really established as true, be readily supportable by appropriate citation, so I don't feel much need to extend trust.
- new299 9y ago
  huh... is touchID more useful? Is a PIN more useful? I'm honestly curious, what's the difference between "I refuse to look at my phone" and "I refuse to enter my PIN" when being detained?

oldsj 9y ago

Well there is something, you can close your eyes at least.

AdamJacobMuller 9y ago

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/17/16161758/ios-11-touch-id-disable-emergency-services-lock https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/17/16161758/ios-11-touch-id-... is how you work around that issue. Keep in mind, you don't need to refuse to TouchID/FaceID forever, just for the timeout (which I do wish was configurable -- I think one hour is reasonable).

chimeracoder 9y ago
Here's the sequence of events: 1. You're walking, with your phone in your pocket. 2. Suddenly, a cop accosts you. You don't have time to react. 3. They detain and restrain you (with handcuffs or otherwise) 4. They pat you down and find your phone 5. They hold up your phone to your face to unlock it I know that people who've never been detained or interacted much with cops think that this is a completely unlikely situation, or easily avoidable, but I promise you it is not. TouchID isn't great from a law enforcement perspective, but it's light years ahead of FaceID.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  As someone who has been stopped/questioned/detained before domestically and internationally (as well as at border checkpoints) as well as mugged, I can assure you that touch vs look is pretty much the same (definitively not light years in difference). The solution is to be proactive. If you are going to walk down the street in an at risk area, you hit the power button five times. If you are about to go through a CBP checkpoint, then do the same. When you go to sleep, do the same (admittedly TouchID is more susceptible here than FaceID). FaceID / TouchID are a "convenience" to be used when you are comfortable with your surroundings. Can you be caught off guard even when you are paranoid? Of course, nothing is ever guaranteed in life, except death and taxes as the saying goes!
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > The solution is to be proactive. If you are going to walk down the street in an at risk area, you hit the power button five times. If you are about to go through a CBP checkpoint, then do the same. You and I have incredibly different experiences of policing and detention if, for you, "be proactive when you're at-risk" is appreciably different from saying "don't use FaceID ever".