12 ms·

Ending factory farming as soon as possible

96 points by robertwiblin 9y ago

NeoBasilisk 9y ago
I think lab-grown meat (if it ever becomes economically feasible) is the only thing that can ever put a dent in factory farming.
- robertwiblin 9y ago
  We talk about that a bunch! I agree, though it's possible before that we'll figure out how to combine plant products in ways that make them taste very similar to meat. Impossible Foods is already impressively close.
  - craftyguy 9y ago
    > though it's possible before that we'll figure out how to combine plant products in ways that make them taste very similar to meat I think the major barrier to mass adoption of this will be convincing the masses that they should try it. Too bad it can't be marketed as meat, at least not for long before getting caught.
    - jessriedel 9y ago
      In principle, it's possible that plant-based meat substitutes could become cheaper than real meat, simply because raw plants are always cheaper per calorie than meat. So the question is whether the conversion from raw plant to meat substitute can be done for cheap enough.
      - craftyguy 9y ago
        Actually, I'm thinking of some of my, uh, close-minded relatives who would refuse to eat such a thing out of 'principle.' The only way to convince them would be to trick them for several years.
    - robertwiblin 9y ago
      Yes this is a problem, though also serious for 'clean meat'. :) Interestingly, consumers are more likely to try out vegan products if they don't say they're vegan on the front of the package...
  - richard___ 9y ago
    What's the nutrition content of the impossible foods burger? The NYT article neglected to discuss that iirc
    - robertwiblin 9y ago
      Hi Richard - the nutritional information is listed on their FAQ: https://www.impossiblefoods.com/faq/ https://www.impossiblefoods.com/faq/ They've made it similar to ground beef I think.
- EGreg 9y ago
  Why doesn't a billionaire just buy up 95% of all the factory farms and start converting them to free range, while lowering output and raising prices? Why don't we as a society subsidize the cost? Would save a lot of lives from suffering. Whatever argument you make against this can also be made in favor of making more cramped prisons and working human prisoners to the bone. Capitalism is designed to exploit externalities, including animal welfare as well as antibiotic resistance.
  - robertwiblin 9y ago
    Couldn't the old owners just open new factory farms and outcompete the now-free range ones by being cheaper?
    - EGreg 9y ago
      Well can't the same argument be made for cutting costs in prisons and working inmates to the hilt?
      - apenwarr 9y ago
        Of course. That's why you need regulations, not billionaires, in both cases.
        EGreg 9y ago
        So can advocates of capitalism admit that it needs to be regulated? How would factory farms have been abolished under anarcho capitalism? How would child labor or sweatshops be abolished? They say that under the NAP there would be no coersion, but clearly there is. They say private ownership of animals will prevent their extinction, like commercial bees. That may be true but what about their welfare?
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - 9y ago
- blizkreeg 9y ago
  I'm all for lab-grown meat but I do question if you'll ever fully satisfy the meat lovers. In my opinion, a better approach would be a hybrid meat/fake meat option which would still make a huge dent in factory farming but appeal to the palates of those who love their cheeseburger. If we can cut down "real" meat consumption by even half, you could in theory make all cows free range.
  - civilian 9y ago
    Why don't you think that lab-grown meat will satisfy meat lovers? Lab grown meat is still biologically meat.
    - blizkreeg 9y ago
      perhaps it's my ignorance as i haven't tasted it.
      - civilian 9y ago
        Okay. I was wondering if you thought the labelling would turn people off. (America has a lot of random fear-of-science. See: anti-GMOs, anti-vaccine, anti-evolution sentiments.) Or maybe that it would be that people wouldn't actually be able to reocognize what cut of meat it was from, and it would be some kind of uncanny valley problem. Or a kind of macho attitude like "if a pig didn't die, it doesn't count as breakfast". (I've seriously heard a guy say that!) Yeah, if you're only concerned about taste/texture/juiciness, I think that's the easiest concern. lab grown meat is still the same muscle cells. I would bet a lot of money that it's going to taste awesome.
        viraptor 9y ago
        It's even better. Unless you really want to have it attached to a rib, or fat chunks in between for some reason, I believe it's going to be the best quality steak meat. Basically a mass produced perfect filet.
        rta1421 9y ago
- cies 9y ago
  One great thing I foresee with lab grown meat is that the discussion changes. Suppose you can get your labgrowns to be cheaper yet indistinguishable from the meat that was once part of a sentient being. In that world you have to be especially sadistic to still want slaughters variant. Investors seem to notice too. "Why Bill Gates And Richard Branson Invested In 'Clean' Meat" https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2017/08/25/why-bill-gates-richard-branson-clean-meat/#69743dbdaf27 https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2017/08/25/why-bil... "Richard Branson predicts the world will no longer need to kill animals in 30 years" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/indyventure/memphis-meats-richard-branson-bill-gates-invest-clean-meat-no-animal-slaughter-protein-cargill-a7909751.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/indyventure/memph... By the way, if anyone who reads still consumes dairy: that stuff is undermining your health. Replacements are getting close, and given that the replacements are WAY more healthy it is just not the same story as meat. (Similar, but less convincing, case can be made for eggs) If lab grown meat can "in the future" make a dent in slaughtered meat consumption (can attract "us" away), then plant-based dairy alternatives should be able to do so today. And they do -- https://www.google.nl/search?q=dairy+consumption+is+down https://www.google.nl/search?q=dairy+consumption+is+down -- all over the western world. Their best strategy: sell it to new markets of people that are, unlike those of European decent, much more likely to be lactose intolerant.
- olejorgenb 9y ago
  It seems the meat and dairy industry is subsidized by the government. One source[1] quote $38 billion yearly while only $17 million goes to the fruit and vegetable industry (The US). Shifting subsidies to greener and more ethical industries would be a good start. The "fake-meat" improves all the time and if it actually were cheaper (in-store) than the meat option things could start to happen. Typically that's not the case[2]. Probably due to a combination of scale, subsidies, willingness to pay amongst vegans and health concerned customers and store policy (key product might be sold at very low margins/loss to attract customers) Estimates of the external cost caused by the meat industry (health, pollution) is also quite high. Special taxes can be used here, while cutting taxes on better products. [1] https://www.peta.org/living/food/10-things-wish-everyone-knew-meat-dairy-industries/ https://www.peta.org/living/food/10-things-wish-everyone-kne... (admittingly not the most objective source) [2] Based on Norwegian stores
DougN7 9y ago
Just pointing out an unintended consequence I saw in a cartoon: As soon as nobody farms cows for meat, milk, and leather, cows will become an endangered species/extinct because nobody will pay to keep them alive. And there's not much space where they could survive on their own in the wild.
- dforrestwilson 9y ago
  Zoos would likely be collectors of last resort. A lot of people think milk cows in particular are cute.
  - a3n 9y ago
    And they love trombone music.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    The location and the sexuality. When Sweden voted to outlaw the latter, a Swedish friend of mine revealed he had lost his virginity that way years earlier. Without passing absolute moral judgement (pro or con) on either type of human-bovine interaction, I cannot see how the latter is relatively worse than the former, which is why his revelation caused me to attempt veganism for a bit (I failed, vegan cheese is no substitute for the real thing).
- jkchu 9y ago
  I don't think the main issue is with farming in general, but with factory farming. Raising farm animals in a humane way is a huge improvement.
  - SilasX 9y ago
    Right, I'd expect the same thing as with horses and other work animals: once the tech makes them obsolete and the current generation dies out, they'll still be around, but for more niche, boutique uses (racing, riding around the ranch, visiting schoolchildren), not the dystopia they had been put through before.
  - 9y ago
Npr251 9y ago
Looking forward to listening to this!
golemotron 9y ago
Am I the only one who wonders how what the actual difference in suffering is in free range vs. factory farming? There might be a lot of projection going on - people imagining themselves in the same circumstance as the animals and missing the mark because of the differences between our sense of life and that of other animals. As an example, I once spoke to a person who thought the movie _The March of the Penguins_ was horrific because the penguins just stood there week after week in the freezing cold doing nothing. That may be perfectly fine for a penguin. It might even be like what a adept meditator would experience in a life of meditation.
- robertwiblin 9y ago
  We talk about this in the episode! :)
  - golemotron 9y ago
    I'm curious but not 3 hours and 16 minutes curious.
- goatlover 9y ago
  Animals aren't totally different than us. We share a lot of similarities biologically, and even in our brain structures. It's safe to assume that herd animals need a decent amount of space to roam around, and that crowding is stressful and possibly causes mental illnesses. This is even more true of animals like pigs. Imagine dogs living their lives out in kennels. Also consider the change in behavior in zoo animals when their habitats are redesigned to more closely resemble their native habitats.
  - golemotron 9y ago
    Thanks. That really has me wondering about the penguins now. Hundreds of thousands of years and evolution has made no accommodation for their emotional well being.
    - goatlover 9y ago
belorn 9y ago
Looking through the different approaches on the list, I am missing one large one. Fishermen are currently throwing away a majority of caught fish because people only buy a very small selection of species (which also differ between nations). We could more than double the amount of fish meat that get eaten without changing the number of fish being killed, and yet for mostly cultural reasons we don't.
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  While I'd rather see mass fishing stopped entirely (and I don't eat fish, or any other meat, on ethical grounds), that's a valid point. I often think of the fact that lobster was once considered trash, or only to be consumed by the lowest classes, and only through an effective marketing campaign did it become a luxury food. But, realistically, many ocean ecosystems are already on the brink of collapse. Merely increasing production won't save those ecosystems; though maybe it'd stave it off for a few years. Our industrial economies have produced seemingly limitless consumption and waste. When you add up all of the wasted food at every stage of our agricultural systems, it is staggering. It's not just fish that's being wasted, it's everything. Solving the waste problem is more boring than growing meat in a lab, but it might be more effective at reducing hunger and reducing ecological destruction.
  - belorn 9y ago
    The waste problem in the other points of the production chain is indeed massive and solvable. The idea that fresh produce is sent to stores only to have a fraction being bought is a massive waste in both food and introduction of additional middle man. Online markets for food could fix this, but I have yet to see one that can compete on prices. It might happen once transport costs go down. To go back to marine ecosystem, those that are on the brink of collapse is so mainly because of 3 causes. Pollution, invasive species, and over overfishing towards specific fish stocks. Both invasive species and overpopulation caused by eutrophication could actually use an increase in fishing in order to increase biodiversity, but a common element in both is that no one want to pay for it. To my knowledge it actually common problem in many fresh water lakes.
- 9y ago
chiefalchemist 9y ago
I don't think most people really care about animals suffering, or not. However, most people do care about themselves and their children. Long to short, factor farming generates a lot of ground level pollution. Furthermore, those animals also generate a lot of greenhouse gases. Frame the problem in terms of human suffering and more people are likely to pay attention. Years ago there was a NY Times Sunday magazine feature article on factor pig farming. It was enlightening. Unfortunately, I've searched for it and can't seem to find it. If you can find, do read it. p.s. Growing crops to be fed to farm animals is also very inefficient. More people would have more food if we all ate less animal protein.
- cies 9y ago
  I see 3 main reasons: 1. Environmental -- For "our children" as you call it. This assumes that countries have gov'ts that give a shit and are not totally controlled by the industry (essentially the mega shareholders) 2. Health -- Plant-based (especially whole plant food) diet is much, much healthier than the a diet that contains several serving of meat/dairy/eggs per week (many have that in a day). This is ALSO an argument for the children, as they will learn from us. (We could not tell kids to not smoke, we have to stop ourselves too!) 3. Ethical -- Whole categories of abuse towards fellow earthlings (poor, women, slaves, lower-caste, captured enemies, etc.) were generally accepted as permissible, yet are now near unanimously condemned. It is not unfathomable that animals --that are currently still being permissibly abused for being of a different species-- may get added to that list. Also the ethical reason will have a huge impact on "our children". As we have seen with the other steps we made in awareness, it is totally worth making these steps. Peace.
  - chiefalchemist 9y ago
    I agree with all those reasons. But the majority of people don't care unless you make it personal. Making the world a better place isn't good enough, it's too abstract. You have to answer "What's in it for me?"
    - cies 9y ago
gooseus 9y ago
I really can't fathom the dogmatic line on vegans/vegetarians when it comes to insect farming for human consumption... They talk about it toward 2:20 (I do like how they had a full transcript and ToC so you can jump around in the audio). In any case, my take away was that because there might be some chance of a "net negative" life for insects in farms, we shouldn't be looking to replace some of our protein needs by insects. Given the sheer amount of ecological damage that is being done to the planet with each season of industrial animal farming, I really don't understand why we're not looking at lab-grown insects as the MVP for "lab-grown meat". The problems needing to be solved to make crickets/mealworm protein a scaled operation that could reduce the demand on chicken/beef/pork are much easier than growing meat in a lab (feel pretty confident in this claim, open to rebuttal). How many cows would be saved every year if just 1 major fast-food burger joint switched to 50/50 mealworm-beef burgers? Would anyone even notice if Taco Bell switched their taco meat to be 50% ground crickets? What resources are required to make lab grown meat anyways? Where are they sourced from? What habitats are collapsing to provide the necessary solvents/catalysts/preservatives/energy/etc for whatever solutions it needs to grow in? What are the negative externalities of this lab-growing process? What does that look like at the scale necessary to take even 20% of the current beef demand? We're twisting our britches over what a cricket or mealworm might feel in a factory farm setting, yet they are basically the perfect little machines for turning carbohydrates, water and air into essential human-accessible proteins and vitamins (crickets have a ton of B12, just like red meat). They're the perfect stop-gap solution until the lab meat is ready for prime-time. Also, insect-farming waste products are typically just great compost and fertilizer and you could basically grow insects underground (mealworms love the dark) and grow their substrate/feed above them. I think calories/acre would be another useful measurement to look at when trying to evaluate which direction human agriculture should be headed. Alright, TL;DR - Insect farming is low hanging fruit for alleviating the ecological pressure of factory animal farming which is being ignored for no good reason. /rant
jrw 9y ago
Thanks for posting this to Hacker News! Very interesting interview covering all aspects of the animal welfare movement. I'm passing on the link to my activist daughters and nieces.

96 points by robertwiblin 9y ago

I think lab-grown meat (if it ever becomes economically feasible) is the only thing that can ever put a dent in factory farming.

robertwiblin 9y ago
We talk about that a bunch! I agree, though it's possible before that we'll figure out how to combine plant products in ways that make them taste very similar to meat. Impossible Foods is already impressively close.
- craftyguy 9y ago
  > though it's possible before that we'll figure out how to combine plant products in ways that make them taste very similar to meat I think the major barrier to mass adoption of this will be convincing the masses that they should try it. Too bad it can't be marketed as meat, at least not for long before getting caught.
  - jessriedel 9y ago
    In principle, it's possible that plant-based meat substitutes could become cheaper than real meat, simply because raw plants are always cheaper per calorie than meat. So the question is whether the conversion from raw plant to meat substitute can be done for cheap enough.
    - craftyguy 9y ago
      Actually, I'm thinking of some of my, uh, close-minded relatives who would refuse to eat such a thing out of 'principle.' The only way to convince them would be to trick them for several years.
  - robertwiblin 9y ago
    Yes this is a problem, though also serious for 'clean meat'. :) Interestingly, consumers are more likely to try out vegan products if they don't say they're vegan on the front of the package...
- richard___ 9y ago
  What's the nutrition content of the impossible foods burger? The NYT article neglected to discuss that iirc
  - robertwiblin 9y ago
    Hi Richard - the nutritional information is listed on their FAQ: https://www.impossiblefoods.com/faq/ https://www.impossiblefoods.com/faq/ They've made it similar to ground beef I think.
EGreg 9y ago
Why doesn't a billionaire just buy up 95% of all the factory farms and start converting them to free range, while lowering output and raising prices? Why don't we as a society subsidize the cost? Would save a lot of lives from suffering. Whatever argument you make against this can also be made in favor of making more cramped prisons and working human prisoners to the bone. Capitalism is designed to exploit externalities, including animal welfare as well as antibiotic resistance.
- robertwiblin 9y ago
  Couldn't the old owners just open new factory farms and outcompete the now-free range ones by being cheaper?
  - EGreg 9y ago
    Well can't the same argument be made for cutting costs in prisons and working inmates to the hilt?
    - apenwarr 9y ago
      Of course. That's why you need regulations, not billionaires, in both cases.
      - EGreg 9y ago
        So can advocates of capitalism admit that it needs to be regulated? How would factory farms have been abolished under anarcho capitalism? How would child labor or sweatshops be abolished? They say that under the NAP there would be no coersion, but clearly there is. They say private ownership of animals will prevent their extinction, like commercial bees. That may be true but what about their welfare?
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - 9y ago
blizkreeg 9y ago
I'm all for lab-grown meat but I do question if you'll ever fully satisfy the meat lovers. In my opinion, a better approach would be a hybrid meat/fake meat option which would still make a huge dent in factory farming but appeal to the palates of those who love their cheeseburger. If we can cut down "real" meat consumption by even half, you could in theory make all cows free range.
- civilian 9y ago
  Why don't you think that lab-grown meat will satisfy meat lovers? Lab grown meat is still biologically meat.
  - blizkreeg 9y ago
    perhaps it's my ignorance as i haven't tasted it.
    - civilian 9y ago
      Okay. I was wondering if you thought the labelling would turn people off. (America has a lot of random fear-of-science. See: anti-GMOs, anti-vaccine, anti-evolution sentiments.) Or maybe that it would be that people wouldn't actually be able to reocognize what cut of meat it was from, and it would be some kind of uncanny valley problem. Or a kind of macho attitude like "if a pig didn't die, it doesn't count as breakfast". (I've seriously heard a guy say that!) Yeah, if you're only concerned about taste/texture/juiciness, I think that's the easiest concern. lab grown meat is still the same muscle cells. I would bet a lot of money that it's going to taste awesome.
      - viraptor 9y ago
        It's even better. Unless you really want to have it attached to a rib, or fat chunks in between for some reason, I believe it's going to be the best quality steak meat. Basically a mass produced perfect filet.
      - rta1421 9y ago
cies 9y ago
One great thing I foresee with lab grown meat is that the discussion changes. Suppose you can get your labgrowns to be cheaper yet indistinguishable from the meat that was once part of a sentient being. In that world you have to be especially sadistic to still want slaughters variant. Investors seem to notice too. "Why Bill Gates And Richard Branson Invested In 'Clean' Meat" https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2017/08/25/why-bill-gates-richard-branson-clean-meat/#69743dbdaf27 https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2017/08/25/why-bil... "Richard Branson predicts the world will no longer need to kill animals in 30 years" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/indyventure/memphis-meats-richard-branson-bill-gates-invest-clean-meat-no-animal-slaughter-protein-cargill-a7909751.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/indyventure/memph... By the way, if anyone who reads still consumes dairy: that stuff is undermining your health. Replacements are getting close, and given that the replacements are WAY more healthy it is just not the same story as meat. (Similar, but less convincing, case can be made for eggs) If lab grown meat can "in the future" make a dent in slaughtered meat consumption (can attract "us" away), then plant-based dairy alternatives should be able to do so today. And they do -- https://www.google.nl/search?q=dairy+consumption+is+down https://www.google.nl/search?q=dairy+consumption+is+down -- all over the western world. Their best strategy: sell it to new markets of people that are, unlike those of European decent, much more likely to be lactose intolerant.
olejorgenb 9y ago
It seems the meat and dairy industry is subsidized by the government. One source[1] quote $38 billion yearly while only $17 million goes to the fruit and vegetable industry (The US). Shifting subsidies to greener and more ethical industries would be a good start. The "fake-meat" improves all the time and if it actually were cheaper (in-store) than the meat option things could start to happen. Typically that's not the case[2]. Probably due to a combination of scale, subsidies, willingness to pay amongst vegans and health concerned customers and store policy (key product might be sold at very low margins/loss to attract customers) Estimates of the external cost caused by the meat industry (health, pollution) is also quite high. Special taxes can be used here, while cutting taxes on better products. [1] https://www.peta.org/living/food/10-things-wish-everyone-knew-meat-dairy-industries/ https://www.peta.org/living/food/10-things-wish-everyone-kne... (admittingly not the most objective source) [2] Based on Norwegian stores

DougN7 9y ago

Just pointing out an unintended consequence I saw in a cartoon: As soon as nobody farms cows for meat, milk, and leather, cows will become an endangered species/extinct because nobody will pay to keep them alive. And there's not much space where they could survive on their own in the wild.

dforrestwilson 9y ago
Zoos would likely be collectors of last resort. A lot of people think milk cows in particular are cute.
- a3n 9y ago
  And they love trombone music.
- ben_w 9y ago
  The location and the sexuality. When Sweden voted to outlaw the latter, a Swedish friend of mine revealed he had lost his virginity that way years earlier. Without passing absolute moral judgement (pro or con) on either type of human-bovine interaction, I cannot see how the latter is relatively worse than the former, which is why his revelation caused me to attempt veganism for a bit (I failed, vegan cheese is no substitute for the real thing).
jkchu 9y ago
I don't think the main issue is with farming in general, but with factory farming. Raising farm animals in a humane way is a huge improvement.
- SilasX 9y ago
  Right, I'd expect the same thing as with horses and other work animals: once the tech makes them obsolete and the current generation dies out, they'll still be around, but for more niche, boutique uses (racing, riding around the ranch, visiting schoolchildren), not the dystopia they had been put through before.
- 9y ago

Npr251 9y ago

Looking forward to listening to this!

golemotron 9y ago

Am I the only one who wonders how what the actual difference in suffering is in free range vs. factory farming? There might be a lot of projection going on - people imagining themselves in the same circumstance as the animals and missing the mark because of the differences between our sense of life and that of other animals. As an example, I once spoke to a person who thought the movie _The March of the Penguins_ was horrific because the penguins just stood there week after week in the freezing cold doing nothing. That may be perfectly fine for a penguin. It might even be like what a adept meditator would experience in a life of meditation.

robertwiblin 9y ago
We talk about this in the episode! :)
- golemotron 9y ago
  I'm curious but not 3 hours and 16 minutes curious.
goatlover 9y ago
Animals aren't totally different than us. We share a lot of similarities biologically, and even in our brain structures. It's safe to assume that herd animals need a decent amount of space to roam around, and that crowding is stressful and possibly causes mental illnesses. This is even more true of animals like pigs. Imagine dogs living their lives out in kennels. Also consider the change in behavior in zoo animals when their habitats are redesigned to more closely resemble their native habitats.
- golemotron 9y ago
  Thanks. That really has me wondering about the penguins now. Hundreds of thousands of years and evolution has made no accommodation for their emotional well being.
  - goatlover 9y ago

belorn 9y ago

Looking through the different approaches on the list, I am missing one large one. Fishermen are currently throwing away a majority of caught fish because people only buy a very small selection of species (which also differ between nations). We could more than double the amount of fish meat that get eaten without changing the number of fish being killed, and yet for mostly cultural reasons we don't.

SwellJoe 9y ago
While I'd rather see mass fishing stopped entirely (and I don't eat fish, or any other meat, on ethical grounds), that's a valid point. I often think of the fact that lobster was once considered trash, or only to be consumed by the lowest classes, and only through an effective marketing campaign did it become a luxury food. But, realistically, many ocean ecosystems are already on the brink of collapse. Merely increasing production won't save those ecosystems; though maybe it'd stave it off for a few years. Our industrial economies have produced seemingly limitless consumption and waste. When you add up all of the wasted food at every stage of our agricultural systems, it is staggering. It's not just fish that's being wasted, it's everything. Solving the waste problem is more boring than growing meat in a lab, but it might be more effective at reducing hunger and reducing ecological destruction.
- belorn 9y ago
  The waste problem in the other points of the production chain is indeed massive and solvable. The idea that fresh produce is sent to stores only to have a fraction being bought is a massive waste in both food and introduction of additional middle man. Online markets for food could fix this, but I have yet to see one that can compete on prices. It might happen once transport costs go down. To go back to marine ecosystem, those that are on the brink of collapse is so mainly because of 3 causes. Pollution, invasive species, and over overfishing towards specific fish stocks. Both invasive species and overpopulation caused by eutrophication could actually use an increase in fishing in order to increase biodiversity, but a common element in both is that no one want to pay for it. To my knowledge it actually common problem in many fresh water lakes.
9y ago

chiefalchemist 9y ago

I don't think most people really care about animals suffering, or not. However, most people do care about themselves and their children. Long to short, factor farming generates a lot of ground level pollution. Furthermore, those animals also generate a lot of greenhouse gases. Frame the problem in terms of human suffering and more people are likely to pay attention. Years ago there was a NY Times Sunday magazine feature article on factor pig farming. It was enlightening. Unfortunately, I've searched for it and can't seem to find it. If you can find, do read it. p.s. Growing crops to be fed to farm animals is also very inefficient. More people would have more food if we all ate less animal protein.

cies 9y ago
I see 3 main reasons: 1. Environmental -- For "our children" as you call it. This assumes that countries have gov'ts that give a shit and are not totally controlled by the industry (essentially the mega shareholders) 2. Health -- Plant-based (especially whole plant food) diet is much, much healthier than the a diet that contains several serving of meat/dairy/eggs per week (many have that in a day). This is ALSO an argument for the children, as they will learn from us. (We could not tell kids to not smoke, we have to stop ourselves too!) 3. Ethical -- Whole categories of abuse towards fellow earthlings (poor, women, slaves, lower-caste, captured enemies, etc.) were generally accepted as permissible, yet are now near unanimously condemned. It is not unfathomable that animals --that are currently still being permissibly abused for being of a different species-- may get added to that list. Also the ethical reason will have a huge impact on "our children". As we have seen with the other steps we made in awareness, it is totally worth making these steps. Peace.
- chiefalchemist 9y ago
  I agree with all those reasons. But the majority of people don't care unless you make it personal. Making the world a better place isn't good enough, it's too abstract. You have to answer "What's in it for me?"
  - cies 9y ago

gooseus 9y ago

I really can't fathom the dogmatic line on vegans/vegetarians when it comes to insect farming for human consumption... They talk about it toward 2:20 (I do like how they had a full transcript and ToC so you can jump around in the audio). In any case, my take away was that because there might be some chance of a "net negative" life for insects in farms, we shouldn't be looking to replace some of our protein needs by insects. Given the sheer amount of ecological damage that is being done to the planet with each season of industrial animal farming, I really don't understand why we're not looking at lab-grown insects as the MVP for "lab-grown meat". The problems needing to be solved to make crickets/mealworm protein a scaled operation that could reduce the demand on chicken/beef/pork are much easier than growing meat in a lab (feel pretty confident in this claim, open to rebuttal). How many cows would be saved every year if just 1 major fast-food burger joint switched to 50/50 mealworm-beef burgers? Would anyone even notice if Taco Bell switched their taco meat to be 50% ground crickets? What resources are required to make lab grown meat anyways? Where are they sourced from? What habitats are collapsing to provide the necessary solvents/catalysts/preservatives/energy/etc for whatever solutions it needs to grow in? What are the negative externalities of this lab-growing process? What does that look like at the scale necessary to take even 20% of the current beef demand? We're twisting our britches over what a cricket or mealworm might feel in a factory farm setting, yet they are basically the perfect little machines for turning carbohydrates, water and air into essential human-accessible proteins and vitamins (crickets have a ton of B12, just like red meat). They're the perfect stop-gap solution until the lab meat is ready for prime-time. Also, insect-farming waste products are typically just great compost and fertilizer and you could basically grow insects underground (mealworms love the dark) and grow their substrate/feed above them. I think calories/acre would be another useful measurement to look at when trying to evaluate which direction human agriculture should be headed. Alright, TL;DR - Insect farming is low hanging fruit for alleviating the ecological pressure of factory animal farming which is being ignored for no good reason. /rant

jrw 9y ago

Thanks for posting this to Hacker News! Very interesting interview covering all aspects of the animal welfare movement. I'm passing on the link to my activist daughters and nieces.