9 ms·

Facebook's underclass: staffers enjoy perks, contractors barely get by

75 points by heinrichf 9y ago

WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
This is a common problem with companies. I've worked as both contractor and staffer. Being a staffer is always better in terms of what perks the company offers on terms of day to day perks. Contractors may seem to get paid a bit more on a per hour basis but when you add up all the company perks, it's always less. Also, staffers always see temps/contractors as outsiders. It does not matter how long they have worked together. It's a strange dynamic. I try to avoid contract/temp work if it's going to be a long term position. It's never pleasant. Facebook is not the first and it won't be the last. Contractors/temps are a benefit to companies since the company can have a flexible workforce they can increase or reduce with little friction.
- corporateslave3 9y ago
  Would you say that even highly payed contract should be avoided? By highly paid I mean between 300k-400k a year? Where the job is an hourly pay that is a never ending contract? Specifically in the financial industry?
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    If you get paid 300k, jump on it. Just make sure you are aware that this may end anytime so save most of the money.
  - WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
    If you can get that much, you're in a different league. I say take it and don't look back. 300k makes the pain of being a contractor much easier.
- Diederich 9y ago
  > It's never pleasant. Can you expand on that if you don't mind?
  - WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
    From my point of view, as I was saying, you are always the outsider. I particularly remember a situation when contractors and temps were excluded from all company functions, no holiday parties, no company get togethers, no company gifts and on and on. Also, there's always a definite divide between the temps and staffers. It may seem petty but after awhile it wears on you; being the outsider is not pleasant. I can take it when I know I'll be working somewhere else in a few months but I could not take it for years.
    - Diederich 9y ago
      Understood, thank you.
- WalterSear 9y ago
  This is about janitors and engineers.
misiti3780 9y ago
"Martinez, 30, actually works three jobs to support himself and his family. His Facebook shift goes from 1.15pm to 10.00pm, so he drives for Lyft in the mornings. On weekends, he picks up shifts as a park ranger. All that work affords him a three-room house that is home to four adults and four children: his wife, their two daughters, his mother-in-law, his wife’s sister, and her two children. The sister and her children sleep in the garage." I think it really sucks that the contractors sound underpaid and dont have access to the benefits. I also wonder why more people dont just leave Silicon Valley for basically anywhere else in the US (assuming they can find a job there) and live a more reasonable lifestyle. If you have three jobs, you dont get to see your family at all, and that is not living. Life is too short.
- RodericDay 9y ago
  Consider the opposite story, of someone languishing somewhere that isn't Silicon Valley. It could be characterized like this: "Well, if they were bold and courageous, they'd take their chances in SV. Tough it out for a year or so, but take advantage of the immense number of opportunities, and eventually climb up from the bottom rung and become successful." If poor people stay in poor places, people wonder why they don't move to take advantage of opportunity. If poor people move to expensive places, people wonder why they didn't stay back where they were and live within their means. It's always possible to blame the victim.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  Moving is harder to do when you're not making enough money to save for it. You can say, "yeah, life is hard, save anyway" but that doesn't really fix anything.
- Texasian 9y ago
  Moving is expensive and disruptive, not just financially. Having to start your professional and personal life over is daunting as fuck.
  - jmcdiesel 9y ago
    Financially, yes... But... the second part is mostly just the dread of it. I've moved (with family) 6 times in the last 7 years... most of which do to bad luck of contracts falling through in the companies i worked for and them just not having enough work to support the staff... lay offs... and while its disruptive, there is actually a ton of growth out of it that, honestly, has been worth it... Just because something is hard up front doesn't at all make it a bad choice...
oli89 9y ago
As a Facebook user who is used as a data milch cows I want lavish perks too! I should really bring this up the next time the Emperor goes on a tour of the realm.
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  I like the term 'data cow', all the data cows sitting around chewing the fat on Facebook while the application milks them for data which they sell to the highest bidder. Very dystopian but awesome none the less.
  - olivermarks 9y ago
    'Attention merchants' milking 'data cows' and reselling ...perfect...
    - ChuckMcM 9y ago
      I'm going to go with 'Attention Farmers' to stay thematic with the Cows. :-) Attention Farmers put out Click Bait to attract Data Cows which they then milk for Data that they can resell.
      - olivermarks 9y ago
        perfect!
- jedmeyers 9y ago
  Your lavish perk apparently, is that you get to get milked for free.
tyingq 9y ago
This isn't really specific to Facebook. How many notable companies have in house employees as cafeteria workers, security guards, cleaning staff, building maintenance, landscape staff, etc?
- sireat 9y ago
  True Google does it too and probably Microsoft, Amazon, Apple and probably Oracle too. In fact it seems that Facebook is actually doing more than most companies. From the article it seems that these service workers at Facebook actually get a minimum wage of $15 an hour which is not bad except for the horrible housing situation in SV.
- umeshunni 9y ago
  But putting Facebook in the title gets the Guardian more clicks.
- tomjen3 9y ago
  Not at all noteable, but the company I work for (Cego) has in house staff for the company cafeteria. I don't know their salary, but they basically have the same perks we do, if slightly less flexible hours. The massage therapist is a contractor, but she runs her own business.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- HillaryBriss 9y ago
  i think it goes beyond notable companies. almost all companies in California that hire cafeteria workers, security guards, cleaning staff, building maintenance, and/or landscape staff hire from the same underclass. the article could just as accurately call it "California's underclass"
- patrickaljord 9y ago
  Yeah, how is the fact that top engineers and sales make way more money than cleaning staff news? I doubt cleaning staff at the Guardian make the same as editors in chief.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fortythirteen 9y ago
This is a perfect example of how demands for socialist implementation are a zero sum game. Facebook's contractors make the $15 an hour that minimum wage workers are clamoring for. Now that they have that - and without offering any new value to Facebook - they want all the perks that high demand, highly skilled workers get. It's a never ending cycle. Not that I don't feel for their disposition, but it shows how these types of requests come with no understanding of basic supply and demand.
- j45 9y ago
  The costs of living in their area may not be affordable at $15/hr.
  - fortythirteen 9y ago
    Is that Facebook's problem to solve? Part of the Bay Area's trouble with affordable housing has to do with their heavy handed rent control policy (another side of price-fixing), which squashes supply.
    - Kalium 9y ago
      It's a mix. It's Facebook's problem to suffer, which means people are going to push them to solve it, even if it's a local government problem.
    - sp332 9y ago
      Yeah, I would say Facebook should get involved in policy because it directly affects their employees and their ability to do business. Also there's a homeless encampment across the street, so it wouldn't be out of line to invest a little in the community they are reshaping. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/07/facebook-and-google-are-building-affordable-housing-in-silicon-valley.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/07/facebook-and-google-are-buil... https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2015/02/06/exclusive-facebook-buys-56-acres-in-menlo-park.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2015/02/06/exclusiv...
      - 9y ago
theonemind 9y ago
There's possibly a good reason for this. If you don't treat your contractors different from your regular employees, the IRS might decide that your contractors are effectively employees and you're just dodging your tax burden. So, yeah, just about anywhere, you "should" be able to tell the difference between contractors and employees.
- mattnewton 9y ago
  IIRC this happened to Microsoft
  - Kalium 9y ago
    Yup, Microsoft. And the IRS was followed by contractors suing for benefits.
kareldonk 9y ago
This is how you get rich: By exploiting others. Thats why i never want to be rich.
gwbas1c 9y ago
I'd view this as commentary on the housing situation in Silicon Valley more than commentary on any specific company. The problem is that, in order for all the tech companies to grow; they need affordable housing for all levels of the staff. This is just as much a government problem as a corporate responsibility problem.
- santaclaus 9y ago
  > The problem is that, in order for all the tech companies to grow; they need affordable housing for all levels of the staff. I'd be curious to know why the major tech employers aren't flexing a bit more muscle on the state level. Cynically, are the higher ups beneficiaries of the currently absurd housing situation, and thus disincentivized in terms of personal wealth to advocate for any change?
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    >Cynically, are the higher ups beneficiaries of the currently absurd housing situation, and thus disincentivized in terms of personal wealth to advocate for any change? Giving the proles a place to live would shadow their sunlight and ruin their countryside views... in Atherton.
  - Kalium 9y ago
    They're sensitive to the optics of megacorporations undermining local control as neighborhoods and cities determine what's best for their own futures.
dizzystar 9y ago
I used to do contracting at another well-known company, filling up coffee hoppers and candy baskets. The work is easy, and arguably not worth much in the way of pay. The problem is that this is all part-time work, and it is effectively impossible to get full-time work. These companies also tend to be in far-off places that, if you are earning $9/hr part-time, means you are taking a 2 hour bus ride each way. In theory, outsourcing to contracting is a good deal, as the contracting companies have no real HR issues with hiring and firing. They are also supposed to supply some sort of health insurance, as required by ACA, but this is circumvented by shifting everyone to part-time, putting them on 6 month contracts that roll between canceled and renewed, and so on. It's a difficult situation for all companies involved. It bothers me that tech is getting the smear for this, when basically every low-wage job has been affected in similar ways.
tmh79 9y ago
I want to bring the focus on inequality here to the absurd cost of living in Silicon Valley. There is a world in which contract workers at Facebook making 15 dollars per hour are able to live reasonably close to work and provide for their families while working only 40 hours per week. That future does not exist without a LOT more housing in the south bay, the peninsula, SF, and the rest of the bay area. FB cannot pay the 15% raises yearly that the housing market demands of those at the bottom. If you care about these issues and live in the south bay, please look into volunteering with and/or donating to siliconvalley@home http://siliconvalleyathome.org/ http://siliconvalleyathome.org/. If you live in SF, look into SFYIMBY http://www.sfyimby.org/ http://www.sfyimby.org/.
- kec 9y ago
  The absurd cost of living is due to an illiquid housing market because of prop 13. Adding more housing just kicks the can down the road a decade or two.
  - elgenie 9y ago
    Prop 13 and the resulting lack of liquidity in the housing market applies everywhere in California. There are multiple causes in play in the Bay Area specifically, of which Prop 13 is merely one.
- voodoomagicman 9y ago
  I agree with the spirit of your comment, but FB certainly CAN pay 15% raises to their lowest paid employees - I imagine w/ very little impact to their bottom line.
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    Nothing grows 15% compounding every year. Not even cancer. 15% compound growth is a motherfucking financial singularity.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    If everyone does that, then you have just started running faster to stand still. They should back initiatives to build more housing in the area.
IkmoIkmo 9y ago
So leave. I just don't get that. I mean, we're literally talking about a group of people with lower-to-middle class US jobs, who, on a daily basis, go to an auction together with a large amount of billionaires and millionaires, and bid against them for real estate, food and all kinds of amenities. To me, that's a joke. And then an article gets written about a staffer vs contractor dichotomy. Come on. Just because you were born in a place of 50 square miles of land, in a country of 3.5 million square miles of land, does not mean you're entitled to the laws of supply and demand being suspended by a massive subsidy program so that you can keep on living there when you're not needed and there's tons of people waiting in line for your spot who're willing to do it for less, while you are needed in other cities where your family can live much more affordably. And this is coming from a leftist who left his own home town because it got overrun by rich kids with daddy's money and expats. I didn't like it either. But I also saw that I was not entitled to hand outs in order for me to live in the most prime location in the country, because everyone wants that and that just does not work, as much as we want it. And the last thing I'm going to do is try to outbid the 1% as a middle class earner and have a shitty quality of life. Working fulltime without kids for 6 months and being homeless all that time because the average rent equals your pay just means you need to move. You've got skills, you're employable, you've got income...
- fluxic 9y ago
  People have roots, man. If somebody would have tried to kick my Grand-x father off his homestead in Scotland, he'd have shoed them away with the blunt end of an axe. And yet when it's capitalism rather than war that displaces people from their homesteads, it's lower-class stubbornness to blame? Why should money entitle people to live in certain places, rather than history? You can argue both sides.
  - wallawe 9y ago
    Your grandfather owned the land. These people do not.
    - dcre 9y ago
koolba 9y ago
> But it does strike her as ironic that the most highly paid workers at Facebook are also the ones who get all the free amenities. That's not irony. That's economics 101.
jjtheblunt 9y ago
Much like Intuit.

75 points by heinrichf 9y ago

This is a common problem with companies. I've worked as both contractor and staffer. Being a staffer is always better in terms of what perks the company offers on terms of day to day perks. Contractors may seem to get paid a bit more on a per hour basis but when you add up all the company perks, it's always less. Also, staffers always see temps/contractors as outsiders. It does not matter how long they have worked together. It's a strange dynamic. I try to avoid contract/temp work if it's going to be a long term position. It's never pleasant. Facebook is not the first and it won't be the last. Contractors/temps are a benefit to companies since the company can have a flexible workforce they can increase or reduce with little friction.

corporateslave3 9y ago
Would you say that even highly payed contract should be avoided? By highly paid I mean between 300k-400k a year? Where the job is an hourly pay that is a never ending contract? Specifically in the financial industry?
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  If you get paid 300k, jump on it. Just make sure you are aware that this may end anytime so save most of the money.
- WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
  If you can get that much, you're in a different league. I say take it and don't look back. 300k makes the pain of being a contractor much easier.
Diederich 9y ago
> It's never pleasant. Can you expand on that if you don't mind?
- WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
  From my point of view, as I was saying, you are always the outsider. I particularly remember a situation when contractors and temps were excluded from all company functions, no holiday parties, no company get togethers, no company gifts and on and on. Also, there's always a definite divide between the temps and staffers. It may seem petty but after awhile it wears on you; being the outsider is not pleasant. I can take it when I know I'll be working somewhere else in a few months but I could not take it for years.
  - Diederich 9y ago
    Understood, thank you.
WalterSear 9y ago
This is about janitors and engineers.

misiti3780 9y ago

"Martinez, 30, actually works three jobs to support himself and his family. His Facebook shift goes from 1.15pm to 10.00pm, so he drives for Lyft in the mornings. On weekends, he picks up shifts as a park ranger. All that work affords him a three-room house that is home to four adults and four children: his wife, their two daughters, his mother-in-law, his wife’s sister, and her two children. The sister and her children sleep in the garage." I think it really sucks that the contractors sound underpaid and dont have access to the benefits. I also wonder why more people dont just leave Silicon Valley for basically anywhere else in the US (assuming they can find a job there) and live a more reasonable lifestyle. If you have three jobs, you dont get to see your family at all, and that is not living. Life is too short.

RodericDay 9y ago
Consider the opposite story, of someone languishing somewhere that isn't Silicon Valley. It could be characterized like this: "Well, if they were bold and courageous, they'd take their chances in SV. Tough it out for a year or so, but take advantage of the immense number of opportunities, and eventually climb up from the bottom rung and become successful." If poor people stay in poor places, people wonder why they don't move to take advantage of opportunity. If poor people move to expensive places, people wonder why they didn't stay back where they were and live within their means. It's always possible to blame the victim.
vinceguidry 9y ago
Moving is harder to do when you're not making enough money to save for it. You can say, "yeah, life is hard, save anyway" but that doesn't really fix anything.
Texasian 9y ago
Moving is expensive and disruptive, not just financially. Having to start your professional and personal life over is daunting as fuck.
- jmcdiesel 9y ago
  Financially, yes... But... the second part is mostly just the dread of it. I've moved (with family) 6 times in the last 7 years... most of which do to bad luck of contracts falling through in the companies i worked for and them just not having enough work to support the staff... lay offs... and while its disruptive, there is actually a ton of growth out of it that, honestly, has been worth it... Just because something is hard up front doesn't at all make it a bad choice...

oli89 9y ago

As a Facebook user who is used as a data milch cows I want lavish perks too! I should really bring this up the next time the Emperor goes on a tour of the realm.

ChuckMcM 9y ago
I like the term 'data cow', all the data cows sitting around chewing the fat on Facebook while the application milks them for data which they sell to the highest bidder. Very dystopian but awesome none the less.
- olivermarks 9y ago
  'Attention merchants' milking 'data cows' and reselling ...perfect...
  - ChuckMcM 9y ago
    I'm going to go with 'Attention Farmers' to stay thematic with the Cows. :-) Attention Farmers put out Click Bait to attract Data Cows which they then milk for Data that they can resell.
    - olivermarks 9y ago
      perfect!
jedmeyers 9y ago
Your lavish perk apparently, is that you get to get milked for free.

tyingq 9y ago

This isn't really specific to Facebook. How many notable companies have in house employees as cafeteria workers, security guards, cleaning staff, building maintenance, landscape staff, etc?

sireat 9y ago
True Google does it too and probably Microsoft, Amazon, Apple and probably Oracle too. In fact it seems that Facebook is actually doing more than most companies. From the article it seems that these service workers at Facebook actually get a minimum wage of $15 an hour which is not bad except for the horrible housing situation in SV.
umeshunni 9y ago
But putting Facebook in the title gets the Guardian more clicks.
tomjen3 9y ago
Not at all noteable, but the company I work for (Cego) has in house staff for the company cafeteria. I don't know their salary, but they basically have the same perks we do, if slightly less flexible hours. The massage therapist is a contractor, but she runs her own business.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
HillaryBriss 9y ago
i think it goes beyond notable companies. almost all companies in California that hire cafeteria workers, security guards, cleaning staff, building maintenance, and/or landscape staff hire from the same underclass. the article could just as accurately call it "California's underclass"
patrickaljord 9y ago
Yeah, how is the fact that top engineers and sales make way more money than cleaning staff news? I doubt cleaning staff at the Guardian make the same as editors in chief.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

fortythirteen 9y ago

This is a perfect example of how demands for socialist implementation are a zero sum game. Facebook's contractors make the $15 an hour that minimum wage workers are clamoring for. Now that they have that - and without offering any new value to Facebook - they want all the perks that high demand, highly skilled workers get. It's a never ending cycle. Not that I don't feel for their disposition, but it shows how these types of requests come with no understanding of basic supply and demand.

j45 9y ago
The costs of living in their area may not be affordable at $15/hr.
- fortythirteen 9y ago
  Is that Facebook's problem to solve? Part of the Bay Area's trouble with affordable housing has to do with their heavy handed rent control policy (another side of price-fixing), which squashes supply.
  - Kalium 9y ago
    It's a mix. It's Facebook's problem to suffer, which means people are going to push them to solve it, even if it's a local government problem.
  - sp332 9y ago
    Yeah, I would say Facebook should get involved in policy because it directly affects their employees and their ability to do business. Also there's a homeless encampment across the street, so it wouldn't be out of line to invest a little in the community they are reshaping. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/07/facebook-and-google-are-building-affordable-housing-in-silicon-valley.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/07/facebook-and-google-are-buil... https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2015/02/06/exclusive-facebook-buys-56-acres-in-menlo-park.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2015/02/06/exclusiv...
    - 9y ago

theonemind 9y ago

There's possibly a good reason for this. If you don't treat your contractors different from your regular employees, the IRS might decide that your contractors are effectively employees and you're just dodging your tax burden. So, yeah, just about anywhere, you "should" be able to tell the difference between contractors and employees.

mattnewton 9y ago
IIRC this happened to Microsoft
- Kalium 9y ago
  Yup, Microsoft. And the IRS was followed by contractors suing for benefits.

kareldonk 9y ago

This is how you get rich: By exploiting others. Thats why i never want to be rich.

gwbas1c 9y ago

I'd view this as commentary on the housing situation in Silicon Valley more than commentary on any specific company. The problem is that, in order for all the tech companies to grow; they need affordable housing for all levels of the staff. This is just as much a government problem as a corporate responsibility problem.

santaclaus 9y ago
> The problem is that, in order for all the tech companies to grow; they need affordable housing for all levels of the staff. I'd be curious to know why the major tech employers aren't flexing a bit more muscle on the state level. Cynically, are the higher ups beneficiaries of the currently absurd housing situation, and thus disincentivized in terms of personal wealth to advocate for any change?
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  >Cynically, are the higher ups beneficiaries of the currently absurd housing situation, and thus disincentivized in terms of personal wealth to advocate for any change? Giving the proles a place to live would shadow their sunlight and ruin their countryside views... in Atherton.
- Kalium 9y ago
  They're sensitive to the optics of megacorporations undermining local control as neighborhoods and cities determine what's best for their own futures.

dizzystar 9y ago

I used to do contracting at another well-known company, filling up coffee hoppers and candy baskets. The work is easy, and arguably not worth much in the way of pay. The problem is that this is all part-time work, and it is effectively impossible to get full-time work. These companies also tend to be in far-off places that, if you are earning $9/hr part-time, means you are taking a 2 hour bus ride each way. In theory, outsourcing to contracting is a good deal, as the contracting companies have no real HR issues with hiring and firing. They are also supposed to supply some sort of health insurance, as required by ACA, but this is circumvented by shifting everyone to part-time, putting them on 6 month contracts that roll between canceled and renewed, and so on. It's a difficult situation for all companies involved. It bothers me that tech is getting the smear for this, when basically every low-wage job has been affected in similar ways.

tmh79 9y ago

I want to bring the focus on inequality here to the absurd cost of living in Silicon Valley. There is a world in which contract workers at Facebook making 15 dollars per hour are able to live reasonably close to work and provide for their families while working only 40 hours per week. That future does not exist without a LOT more housing in the south bay, the peninsula, SF, and the rest of the bay area. FB cannot pay the 15% raises yearly that the housing market demands of those at the bottom. If you care about these issues and live in the south bay, please look into volunteering with and/or donating to siliconvalley@home http://siliconvalleyathome.org/ http://siliconvalleyathome.org/. If you live in SF, look into SFYIMBY http://www.sfyimby.org/ http://www.sfyimby.org/.

kec 9y ago
The absurd cost of living is due to an illiquid housing market because of prop 13. Adding more housing just kicks the can down the road a decade or two.
- elgenie 9y ago
  Prop 13 and the resulting lack of liquidity in the housing market applies everywhere in California. There are multiple causes in play in the Bay Area specifically, of which Prop 13 is merely one.
voodoomagicman 9y ago
I agree with the spirit of your comment, but FB certainly CAN pay 15% raises to their lowest paid employees - I imagine w/ very little impact to their bottom line.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  Nothing grows 15% compounding every year. Not even cancer. 15% compound growth is a motherfucking financial singularity.
- mattnewton 9y ago
  If everyone does that, then you have just started running faster to stand still. They should back initiatives to build more housing in the area.

IkmoIkmo 9y ago

So leave. I just don't get that. I mean, we're literally talking about a group of people with lower-to-middle class US jobs, who, on a daily basis, go to an auction together with a large amount of billionaires and millionaires, and bid against them for real estate, food and all kinds of amenities. To me, that's a joke. And then an article gets written about a staffer vs contractor dichotomy. Come on. Just because you were born in a place of 50 square miles of land, in a country of 3.5 million square miles of land, does not mean you're entitled to the laws of supply and demand being suspended by a massive subsidy program so that you can keep on living there when you're not needed and there's tons of people waiting in line for your spot who're willing to do it for less, while you are needed in other cities where your family can live much more affordably. And this is coming from a leftist who left his own home town because it got overrun by rich kids with daddy's money and expats. I didn't like it either. But I also saw that I was not entitled to hand outs in order for me to live in the most prime location in the country, because everyone wants that and that just does not work, as much as we want it. And the last thing I'm going to do is try to outbid the 1% as a middle class earner and have a shitty quality of life. Working fulltime without kids for 6 months and being homeless all that time because the average rent equals your pay just means you need to move. You've got skills, you're employable, you've got income...

fluxic 9y ago
People have roots, man. If somebody would have tried to kick my Grand-x father off his homestead in Scotland, he'd have shoed them away with the blunt end of an axe. And yet when it's capitalism rather than war that displaces people from their homesteads, it's lower-class stubbornness to blame? Why should money entitle people to live in certain places, rather than history? You can argue both sides.
- wallawe 9y ago
  Your grandfather owned the land. These people do not.
  - dcre 9y ago

koolba 9y ago

> But it does strike her as ironic that the most highly paid workers at Facebook are also the ones who get all the free amenities. That's not irony. That's economics 101.

jjtheblunt 9y ago

Much like Intuit.