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Silicon Valley likes young people because they tend to accept worse employment contracts and accept the idea of longer hours. Folks with family responsibility i

Silicon Valley likes young people because they tend to accept worse employment contracts and accept the idea of longer hours. Folks with family responsibility immediately put counter-pressure on this. I'm 38. And I feel enormous pressure to be smarter than everyone around me to be relevant. People expect you to be incredible both at management and engineering as you get older. I'm very lucky my career path has given me opportunity here, because but for a few chance encounters I'd be much, much worse at both and that'd be awful. I'm quite worried about what people will expect of me when I'm 45. I'm working hard to add data science to my resume because I think that "mathy" roles have less discrimination against them than pure engineering roles, and I want to stay ahead of it. I do a lot of stuff that is tactical as well. For example, today I'm wearing a uniqlo-nintendo collaboration t-shirt with Pikachu on it. I'm doing so on the day I'm giving an interview. Because I know, tactically, this shirt is silly and irreverent and paints a picture of someone younger at heart. And maybe that is naturally me (pika pika, ban lylat!) but I'd be lying if I didn't continue to do it tactically to appear more relevant and "with it". What's interesting to me is that outside of the SV startup world, every computer scientist and great engineer I respect is a person over 40. Especially in academia, where women and men of astounding intelligence are doing work that in 10 years will probably reshape the industry (put forth, naturally, by breathlessly enthusiastic 21 year old "devrel" folks mis-attributing the work of 2 generations of academia to the brilliance of the senior technical staff at that company). So yeah, it sucks. It's real. And there is a reason in the older white male-ish segment you find more awareness of other types (gender, racial) discrimination in the industry: people over 40 directly experience age discrimination and it's not at all theoretical even to white men in that cohort. If it can happen to older white dudes, it surely can happen to anyone else.

pmiller2 9y ago
> ...employment contracts.... What employment contract?
- tomsthumb 9y ago
  I would assume "s/employment contracts/employment agreements/" is closer to what was meant.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    They are contracts though, we just agree to miserable terms.
    - zimzam 9y ago
      They aren’t contracts in at-will employment states
      - ryan-c 9y ago
        Most jobs require the employee to sign a contract. It's just not a contract that gives them any assurance of keeping their job.
      - KirinDave 9y ago
        The at-will clause in your employment contract is one of MANY terms with rather far-reaching legal implications. But for example you almost certainly have a moonlighting clause with specific rules. You have invention disclosure and ownership with rules. These represent binding contracts between you and your employer, often with rules around conflict resolution that are also legally binding.
- throwawaymyip 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=15349994 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=15349994
- realbarack 9y ago
  I took that not to mean literal contracts, but rather a "contract of expectations"—we pay you X, in return you do Y (where in this case Y is "work longer hours" and such).
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    If you work full time you sign an agreement which contains contractual obligations. The fact that employment is 'at-will' doesn't really change this fact or characterization.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jasode 9y ago
>Silicon Valley likes young people People get the wrong impression that it's a SV thing. It's not just SV. Lots of employers (who are themselves age 40+) like to hire 20-somethings. As one example, there was a reddit thread with a woman in Tennessee trying to start a hot sauce business. In one of her replies, she wrote: "I wanted my company to be young and hip, so I hired young and hip -- okay, ‘hip’ might be subjective, but we’re definitely young."[1] It was fascinating to watch an honest moment of communication because she later deleted that reply. However, others had already quickly replied to it which left her original comment for prosperity.[1] In another example, the aides that sit directly adjacent to the President's oval office are traditionally staffed by 20-somethings.[2] There's nothing in the job description that says the gatekeeping work can't be done by senior-citizens but every WH Chief of Staff always wants the high energy of a recent college grad stationed there. It's not just programming. Whether it's packaging up food sauce in Tennessee or filtering visitors into the President's office in Washington DC, employers want the vibe of a young crew. [1] original text still in a reply: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/4hiipf/update_hi_reddit_my_name_is_sue_sullivan_and_six/d2q4ddr https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/4hiipf/update_hi_redd... [2] Bush aides: https://youtu.be/lNhpsPvMYAE?t=5m37s https://youtu.be/lNhpsPvMYAE?t=5m37s Obama aides: https://youtu.be/p-U0-0anzV0?t=28s https://youtu.be/p-U0-0anzV0?t=28s Clinton aides: https://youtu.be/uzZ-gfvXN-c?t=25m17s https://youtu.be/uzZ-gfvXN-c?t=25m17s
- QAPereo 9y ago
  You forgot the military...
  - deepsun 9y ago
    And Hollywood...
    - JBlue42 9y ago
      Hollywood loves them, esp. if you come from money. To get a foot in the door anywhere, there's unpaid internships that you might work anywhere from 3-6 months, then maybe roll onto the next. I've met people that interned for 1-2 years before getting a Production Assistant job (pays about $12/hr starting, IIRC) in which you step up from taking out the trash but are still working 12-hr days. Once you pass that hurdle though, you can keep moving on up to better pay and positions but the expectation is to pay your dues (for free). Young, recent grads are great for that I guess because of how unencumbered most are but, when you look at the debate on diversity in Hollywood, it's not about what's in front of the camera but about the opportunities behind the scenes, which your background might limit when you're starting out.
pm90 9y ago
Your experience may vary, but as a relatively younger person, I've had a ton of respect for older, wiser programmers, but only when they do show said wisdom. These are people who are technically very sound, are very precise when they speak, can explain clearly the consequences of different engineering design decisions. They are also adept at staying mostly out of office politics and bringing the focus on engineering, mostly because they are very low drama people themselves, and are genuinely interested in good engineering rather than their engineering. I hope that when I age, I do become somewhat of a similar person. But I know that there is a ton I have to learn. On the other hand, I've also seen older people who seem worse than the dumbest college graduates. These are the uncurious people, who never delved deeper, never tried doing more than required, to learn more than necessary, and went from satisfying requirements of one role from the next without developing the wisdom that comes from having made a ton of mistakes, the knowledge that comes from asking curious questions. These people are safe only because of their seniority, and are among the first to be laid off during harsher times.
- whipoodle 9y ago
  Ok, but who you value and who gets fired/laid off may not match up.
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  > These people are safe only because of their seniority, and are among the first to be laid off during harsher times. These two phrases don't agree. ;-)
  - pm90 9y ago
    Maybe I was not very clear. They continue to be employed because of their seniority when the company is doing well. But when shit hits the fan and you have to make difficult decisions about who are absolutely necessary to the working of the company, that's when they are laid off.
- jusaduder 9y ago
  >These are the uncurious people, who never delved deeper, never tried doing more than required... So in other words, some old people are good, some are bad. Just like young people. This is not known?
justforFranz 9y ago
Silicon Valley has to be at least 65% cult.
groby_b 9y ago
Counterpoint: I'm 48. I work in the Valley. I do wear suits and dresses because that's what I like. (Some days, you can catch me in jeans and t-shirts. It's rare). I don't pick up hobbies I don't care about just because "everybody does it". (Looking at you, bicycling!). I'm not even male. I still (just verified :) ace my interviews. I'm well respected at my job. I've got a decent income and a decent set of responsibilities. Maybe I'm an exception. But, alternative thought, maybe the "youth obsession" is also partially created because everybody thinks it exists. Yes, I'm wondering what happens when I get post 50 as well. But mostly I'm thinking that because everybody tells me it will be bad, not because I've seen actual evidence. I've got wonderful colleagues who are 50+, and nobody would dream of firing them. I've got industry contacts who are 50+. So, I guess I'll find out in about two years.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > I'm not even male. I sure do wish I could convince people of this, but getting "they" from folks has been impossible. > But, alternative thought, maybe the "youth obsession" is also partially created because everybody thinks it exists. If that's the case than it's much worse than simple bias.
  - empthought 9y ago
    >> I'm not even male. > I sure do wish I could convince people of this, but getting "they" from folks has been impossible. It could be that pronouns have no bearing on one's sex class.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      If that's the case then why refuse any such designation? We certainly put up with more eccentric affectations than this is our community, like the idea of 10x programmers, the relevance of object oriented programming, free $4 bottle water, ping pong during work hours, or the idea that everyone needs a $3200 laptop. No, it's precisely because it has bearing that people oppose it.
Balgair 9y ago
> Especially in academia, where women and men of astounding intelligence are doing work that in 10 years will probably reshape the industry (put forth, naturally, by breathlessly enthusiastic 21 year old "devrel" folks mis-attributing the work of 2 generations of academia to the brilliance of the senior technical staff at that company). I may be misunderstanding your sentence structure, so please forgive me, however, the vast majority of research in nearly every corner of science/academia is no longer done by anyone over 35. The large majority of professors have transitioned to grant writing and nearly none of them 'touch the bench' anymore. As such, the near entirety of science today is done by 20-somethings, from experimental set-up through completion, validation, writing and publishing. Professors provide guidance (stress) and funding, not really anything more.
- bayonetz 9y ago
  Without the profs' guidance most grad students would take too long converge on an interesting topic and still have time to see it through in a standard length grad school stay.
  - Balgair 9y ago
    I disagree entirely.
Maven911 9y ago
I am curious about who are some of the academics that you are referring to that may reshape he industry, care to share ?
KarlJay001 9y ago
Over 45 here and have been life long tech. I'm not 100% sure what the job market is like as I'm just getting back in, but I can say it's life long learning. I've created the products for a number of startups all by myself and I'm hoping that with the tight market there's enough room for me. If that doesn't work out, I've run my own company for a number of years and that's another option. If you keep grinding, when you get 45+ you'll have deep knowledge. I've know a LOT of fakers over the years, they don't last. Know your stuff. I can and have created the product from idea to merger, you've got to learn everything you can, everything. It's not fun, but it'll make sure that you have value. There's something that transcends discrimination, and that's valuable skills.
mercer 9y ago
I'm 'only' in my early thirties and I'm worried enough about the things you mention that I'm trying to change my trajectory as a programmer slightly away from 'web stuff' and towards, well, I'm not entirely sure, but at the very least back-end and data-sciencey things. The boundless optimism I had about there 'always being work' is not there anymore. Now I'm probably too cautious of a person, in general, and perhaps this is more just me getting older rather than anything real. Still.

pmiller2 9y ago

> ...employment contracts.... What employment contract?

tomsthumb 9y ago
I would assume "s/employment contracts/employment agreements/" is closer to what was meant.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  They are contracts though, we just agree to miserable terms.
  - zimzam 9y ago
    They aren’t contracts in at-will employment states
    - ryan-c 9y ago
      Most jobs require the employee to sign a contract. It's just not a contract that gives them any assurance of keeping their job.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      The at-will clause in your employment contract is one of MANY terms with rather far-reaching legal implications. But for example you almost certainly have a moonlighting clause with specific rules. You have invention disclosure and ownership with rules. These represent binding contracts between you and your employer, often with rules around conflict resolution that are also legally binding.
throwawaymyip 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=15349994 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=15349994
realbarack 9y ago
I took that not to mean literal contracts, but rather a "contract of expectations"—we pay you X, in return you do Y (where in this case Y is "work longer hours" and such).
- KirinDave 9y ago
  If you work full time you sign an agreement which contains contractual obligations. The fact that employment is 'at-will' doesn't really change this fact or characterization.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jasode 9y ago

>Silicon Valley likes young people People get the wrong impression that it's a SV thing. It's not just SV. Lots of employers (who are themselves age 40+) like to hire 20-somethings. As one example, there was a reddit thread with a woman in Tennessee trying to start a hot sauce business. In one of her replies, she wrote: "I wanted my company to be young and hip, so I hired young and hip -- okay, ‘hip’ might be subjective, but we’re definitely young."[1] It was fascinating to watch an honest moment of communication because she later deleted that reply. However, others had already quickly replied to it which left her original comment for prosperity.[1] In another example, the aides that sit directly adjacent to the President's oval office are traditionally staffed by 20-somethings.[2] There's nothing in the job description that says the gatekeeping work can't be done by senior-citizens but every WH Chief of Staff always wants the high energy of a recent college grad stationed there. It's not just programming. Whether it's packaging up food sauce in Tennessee or filtering visitors into the President's office in Washington DC, employers want the vibe of a young crew. [1] original text still in a reply: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/4hiipf/update_hi_reddit_my_name_is_sue_sullivan_and_six/d2q4ddr https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/4hiipf/update_hi_redd... [2] Bush aides: https://youtu.be/lNhpsPvMYAE?t=5m37s https://youtu.be/lNhpsPvMYAE?t=5m37s Obama aides: https://youtu.be/p-U0-0anzV0?t=28s https://youtu.be/p-U0-0anzV0?t=28s Clinton aides: https://youtu.be/uzZ-gfvXN-c?t=25m17s https://youtu.be/uzZ-gfvXN-c?t=25m17s

QAPereo 9y ago
You forgot the military...
- deepsun 9y ago
  And Hollywood...
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    Hollywood loves them, esp. if you come from money. To get a foot in the door anywhere, there's unpaid internships that you might work anywhere from 3-6 months, then maybe roll onto the next. I've met people that interned for 1-2 years before getting a Production Assistant job (pays about $12/hr starting, IIRC) in which you step up from taking out the trash but are still working 12-hr days. Once you pass that hurdle though, you can keep moving on up to better pay and positions but the expectation is to pay your dues (for free). Young, recent grads are great for that I guess because of how unencumbered most are but, when you look at the debate on diversity in Hollywood, it's not about what's in front of the camera but about the opportunities behind the scenes, which your background might limit when you're starting out.

pm90 9y ago

Your experience may vary, but as a relatively younger person, I've had a ton of respect for older, wiser programmers, but only when they do show said wisdom. These are people who are technically very sound, are very precise when they speak, can explain clearly the consequences of different engineering design decisions. They are also adept at staying mostly out of office politics and bringing the focus on engineering, mostly because they are very low drama people themselves, and are genuinely interested in good engineering rather than their engineering. I hope that when I age, I do become somewhat of a similar person. But I know that there is a ton I have to learn. On the other hand, I've also seen older people who seem worse than the dumbest college graduates. These are the uncurious people, who never delved deeper, never tried doing more than required, to learn more than necessary, and went from satisfying requirements of one role from the next without developing the wisdom that comes from having made a ton of mistakes, the knowledge that comes from asking curious questions. These people are safe only because of their seniority, and are among the first to be laid off during harsher times.

whipoodle 9y ago
Ok, but who you value and who gets fired/laid off may not match up.
mixmastamyk 9y ago
> These people are safe only because of their seniority, and are among the first to be laid off during harsher times. These two phrases don't agree. ;-)
- pm90 9y ago
  Maybe I was not very clear. They continue to be employed because of their seniority when the company is doing well. But when shit hits the fan and you have to make difficult decisions about who are absolutely necessary to the working of the company, that's when they are laid off.
jusaduder 9y ago
>These are the uncurious people, who never delved deeper, never tried doing more than required... So in other words, some old people are good, some are bad. Just like young people. This is not known?

justforFranz 9y ago

Silicon Valley has to be at least 65% cult.

groby_b 9y ago

Counterpoint: I'm 48. I work in the Valley. I do wear suits and dresses because that's what I like. (Some days, you can catch me in jeans and t-shirts. It's rare). I don't pick up hobbies I don't care about just because "everybody does it". (Looking at you, bicycling!). I'm not even male. I still (just verified :) ace my interviews. I'm well respected at my job. I've got a decent income and a decent set of responsibilities. Maybe I'm an exception. But, alternative thought, maybe the "youth obsession" is also partially created because everybody thinks it exists. Yes, I'm wondering what happens when I get post 50 as well. But mostly I'm thinking that because everybody tells me it will be bad, not because I've seen actual evidence. I've got wonderful colleagues who are 50+, and nobody would dream of firing them. I've got industry contacts who are 50+. So, I guess I'll find out in about two years.

KirinDave 9y ago
> I'm not even male. I sure do wish I could convince people of this, but getting "they" from folks has been impossible. > But, alternative thought, maybe the "youth obsession" is also partially created because everybody thinks it exists. If that's the case than it's much worse than simple bias.
- empthought 9y ago
  >> I'm not even male. > I sure do wish I could convince people of this, but getting "they" from folks has been impossible. It could be that pronouns have no bearing on one's sex class.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    If that's the case then why refuse any such designation? We certainly put up with more eccentric affectations than this is our community, like the idea of 10x programmers, the relevance of object oriented programming, free $4 bottle water, ping pong during work hours, or the idea that everyone needs a $3200 laptop. No, it's precisely because it has bearing that people oppose it.

Balgair 9y ago

> Especially in academia, where women and men of astounding intelligence are doing work that in 10 years will probably reshape the industry (put forth, naturally, by breathlessly enthusiastic 21 year old "devrel" folks mis-attributing the work of 2 generations of academia to the brilliance of the senior technical staff at that company). I may be misunderstanding your sentence structure, so please forgive me, however, the vast majority of research in nearly every corner of science/academia is no longer done by anyone over 35. The large majority of professors have transitioned to grant writing and nearly none of them 'touch the bench' anymore. As such, the near entirety of science today is done by 20-somethings, from experimental set-up through completion, validation, writing and publishing. Professors provide guidance (stress) and funding, not really anything more.

bayonetz 9y ago
Without the profs' guidance most grad students would take too long converge on an interesting topic and still have time to see it through in a standard length grad school stay.
- Balgair 9y ago
  I disagree entirely.

Maven911 9y ago

I am curious about who are some of the academics that you are referring to that may reshape he industry, care to share ?

KarlJay001 9y ago

Over 45 here and have been life long tech. I'm not 100% sure what the job market is like as I'm just getting back in, but I can say it's life long learning. I've created the products for a number of startups all by myself and I'm hoping that with the tight market there's enough room for me. If that doesn't work out, I've run my own company for a number of years and that's another option. If you keep grinding, when you get 45+ you'll have deep knowledge. I've know a LOT of fakers over the years, they don't last. Know your stuff. I can and have created the product from idea to merger, you've got to learn everything you can, everything. It's not fun, but it'll make sure that you have value. There's something that transcends discrimination, and that's valuable skills.

mercer 9y ago

I'm 'only' in my early thirties and I'm worried enough about the things you mention that I'm trying to change my trajectory as a programmer slightly away from 'web stuff' and towards, well, I'm not entirely sure, but at the very least back-end and data-sciencey things. The boundless optimism I had about there 'always being work' is not there anymore. Now I'm probably too cautious of a person, in general, and perhaps this is more just me getting older rather than anything real. Still.