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Expecting sick people to not fill a room with hundreds of millions of aerosolized particles when that could be clearly avoided is a result of simple respect for

Expecting sick people to not fill a room with hundreds of millions of aerosolized particles when that could be clearly avoided is a result of simple respect for those around you and evidence of manners and good breeding. Cover your sneeze. Cover your cough. Stay home when sick. These are kindergarten-level cultural learnings.

WorldMaker 9y ago
Arguably it is kindergarten where a lot of Americans learn the wrong lessons. Kindergartens for most of us were the first open plan offices with terrible inhumane absence policies that most of us experienced.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Current childcare policies are causing public health problems by keeping children away when not needed, or requiring courses of not needed antibiotics before the child is allowed back.
whoru007 9y ago
> Cover your sneeze. Cover your cough. Stay home when sick. These are kindergarten-level cultural learnings. A friend/colleague of mine is suffering from Chronic sinusitis and she usually sneezes every morning for around 20-30 times (random number, I know!) over period of few hours. The 'sneezing fit' is 100% of the time non-contagious yet loud and 'full with watery substance', She covers her sneezing most of the time however it is not always possible to react in time. Also, she's a single working mother raising two well mannered and cute children. Would you expect her to always stay home when she's always 'sick'? These kindergarten-level cultural learnings you are talking about are societal pressure, we inhale pollutants, pollens and smoke from cigarettes all the time!
- d23 9y ago
  Be realistic. We're talking about the 99.9% of other people who don't have that condition.
  - mattrices 9y ago
    The point is not all sneezes are due to colds. There are other causes that account for much more than .1%. Don't reinfoce societal pressure with biased probability analysis.
    - MSM 9y ago
      >Don't reinfoce societal pressure with biased probability analysis. They aren't saying don't sneeze, they're saying cover your sneeze. It doesn't matter why you are sneezing, covering it is the standard.
      - debaserab2 9y ago
        Agreed, but I think what is ridiculous is training your lungs to minimize the effectiveness of your sneeze. That is absolutely ridiculous: your body is sneezing for a reason, let it do its thing (and cover it).
        Djvacto 9y ago
        I think his tips were meant as an option. To be quite honest I'll be trying some of these, because it's not a huge amount of effort at all.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    Where do you get your numbers from? Allergies are a pretty common thing. And the symptoms mimic a cold. Numbers seem to differ, but I'm getting anything from 10% to 30% of adults. [1] I'm pretty sure that makes your numbers bad. And want folks to stay home? How the heck are they supposed to afford it when they can be contagious for 2 weeks? Heck, folks are contagious before their symptoms even start. How can one allow for that? [2] Most jobs aren't going to allow for that sort of time off, nor are schools. Most that do will require a doctor's note - and it hardly seems reasonable to go to a doctor for a simple cold virus. [1] http://www.aaaai.org/about-aaaai/newsroom/allergy-statistics http://www.aaaai.org/about-aaaai/newsroom/allergy-statistics [2] https://www.healthline.com/health/cold-flu/contagious#overview1 https://www.healthline.com/health/cold-flu/contagious#overvi...
- pjc50 9y ago
  That's unfortunate. I used to suffer from occasional random sneezing until I got far enough down the list of suggested hayfever treatments to find one that worked (avamys). There are a lot of different causes of this kind of thing and some are very easily treated and some aren't.
- rboyd 9y ago
  this used to be me. constantly sick with sinus infection (like out of action for ~10 days every 2 months). I started dating someone who ate a vegan diet, and after adopting that diet I've been sick twice in 4 years and both times were very light and ran for only 2-3 days. I have no idea why it had that effect for me, and everyone is different, but if she's suffering enough that she's at the point where she'll try anything you might pass along my anecdote. I wish I had chanced into it earlier.
tcfunk 9y ago
Im not telling people not to cover their mouth. That's a reasonable expectation. I'm saying don't expect people to hold in sneezes.
visarga 9y ago
> Cover your sneeze. Cover your cough. Face masks FTW! Then you can creep out anybody.
- collyw 9y ago
  When I see people in airports with those on, I make a point of coughing as loudly as possible when up close to them
omginternets 9y ago
>Cover your sneeze. Cover your cough. Stay home when sick. These are kindergarten-level cultural learnings. Yes, fine, but none of these involve suppressing a sneeze. The goalpost has shifted.
pizza 9y ago
Be that as it may, federal law does not require sick leave [0], so expecting people to act against their own interests is not the clear solution. The dilemma between - your livelihood & potential (costly) treatment - absence without sick pay goes beyond kindergarten-level because kindergarteners really don't have much to lose. Staying at home when you are sick, from the employer's perspective, should be vastly preferable. Even if the employer were totally heartless about people's health and only cared about money, it's a risk avoidance strategy that pays for itself many times over by reducing the chance the business collapses. They lose a negligible amount of productivity to reduce the risk they lose a significant amount of productivity. And yet, there are many employers who will hold you in contempt for asking they institute sick leave -- even if it's the only reasonable way to deal with the reality that people transfer sickness but also need to eat. Sick people act rationally when looking out for their own livelihood's continued existence. I agree it's definitely good to hope to gain recognition for your displays of respect towards your employer/coworkers. But if your employer/coworkers do not respect that you have jeopardized your livelihood for their benefit, the continued and self-inflicted cost is pretty much a total refutation of "good breeding", cultural learnings, or understanding what manners are for. And then, beyond the 1st-order consequences, there are 2nd-order (immunity/interpersonal/office politics) consequences of the decision to prevent people from coming into contact with all pathogens, if the primary aim is only to reduce the risk of extremely harmful pathogens (but those aren't particularly relevant to the discussion of individual decision-making). [0] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/sickleave https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/sickleave
jmcqk6 9y ago
As someone else mentioned, sick leave is not guaranteed. There are millions of people who have jobs where if you call in sick, you are risking your job. For years, my dad had 4 days off a year. That was both vacation and sick time. Any other time missed was time he wasn't getting paid for. People who read HN probably don't know what that's like for the most part, especially if you offer opinions like yours. You might have learned that in kindergarten but sometimes you gotta eat, too. Especially when others are depending on you.
collyw 9y ago
Screw that, I would prefer to take the risk of a cold than have to make up the work for lazy bastards who take a day of for a bit of a runny nose. There is a good chance I am going to get it anywhere else I go anyway (shops, public transport, anywhere public basically). Genuine sickness yes, but a bit of a cold where half of the office can manage to soldier on? I reckon I ought to get some sort of bonus for the fact I stay in shape, eat well and haven't had a sick day in a few years. Some people can't even avoid it because of their work, doctors receptionists for example.

WorldMaker 9y ago

Arguably it is kindergarten where a lot of Americans learn the wrong lessons. Kindergartens for most of us were the first open plan offices with terrible inhumane absence policies that most of us experienced.

DanBC 9y ago
Current childcare policies are causing public health problems by keeping children away when not needed, or requiring courses of not needed antibiotics before the child is allowed back.

whoru007 9y ago

> Cover your sneeze. Cover your cough. Stay home when sick. These are kindergarten-level cultural learnings. A friend/colleague of mine is suffering from Chronic sinusitis and she usually sneezes every morning for around 20-30 times (random number, I know!) over period of few hours. The 'sneezing fit' is 100% of the time non-contagious yet loud and 'full with watery substance', She covers her sneezing most of the time however it is not always possible to react in time. Also, she's a single working mother raising two well mannered and cute children. Would you expect her to always stay home when she's always 'sick'? These kindergarten-level cultural learnings you are talking about are societal pressure, we inhale pollutants, pollens and smoke from cigarettes all the time!

d23 9y ago
Be realistic. We're talking about the 99.9% of other people who don't have that condition.
- mattrices 9y ago
  The point is not all sneezes are due to colds. There are other causes that account for much more than .1%. Don't reinfoce societal pressure with biased probability analysis.
  - MSM 9y ago
    >Don't reinfoce societal pressure with biased probability analysis. They aren't saying don't sneeze, they're saying cover your sneeze. It doesn't matter why you are sneezing, covering it is the standard.
    - debaserab2 9y ago
      Agreed, but I think what is ridiculous is training your lungs to minimize the effectiveness of your sneeze. That is absolutely ridiculous: your body is sneezing for a reason, let it do its thing (and cover it).
      - Djvacto 9y ago
        I think his tips were meant as an option. To be quite honest I'll be trying some of these, because it's not a huge amount of effort at all.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Where do you get your numbers from? Allergies are a pretty common thing. And the symptoms mimic a cold. Numbers seem to differ, but I'm getting anything from 10% to 30% of adults. [1] I'm pretty sure that makes your numbers bad. And want folks to stay home? How the heck are they supposed to afford it when they can be contagious for 2 weeks? Heck, folks are contagious before their symptoms even start. How can one allow for that? [2] Most jobs aren't going to allow for that sort of time off, nor are schools. Most that do will require a doctor's note - and it hardly seems reasonable to go to a doctor for a simple cold virus. [1] http://www.aaaai.org/about-aaaai/newsroom/allergy-statistics http://www.aaaai.org/about-aaaai/newsroom/allergy-statistics [2] https://www.healthline.com/health/cold-flu/contagious#overview1 https://www.healthline.com/health/cold-flu/contagious#overvi...
pjc50 9y ago
That's unfortunate. I used to suffer from occasional random sneezing until I got far enough down the list of suggested hayfever treatments to find one that worked (avamys). There are a lot of different causes of this kind of thing and some are very easily treated and some aren't.
rboyd 9y ago
this used to be me. constantly sick with sinus infection (like out of action for ~10 days every 2 months). I started dating someone who ate a vegan diet, and after adopting that diet I've been sick twice in 4 years and both times were very light and ran for only 2-3 days. I have no idea why it had that effect for me, and everyone is different, but if she's suffering enough that she's at the point where she'll try anything you might pass along my anecdote. I wish I had chanced into it earlier.

tcfunk 9y ago

Im not telling people not to cover their mouth. That's a reasonable expectation. I'm saying don't expect people to hold in sneezes.

visarga 9y ago

> Cover your sneeze. Cover your cough. Face masks FTW! Then you can creep out anybody.

collyw 9y ago
When I see people in airports with those on, I make a point of coughing as loudly as possible when up close to them

omginternets 9y ago

>Cover your sneeze. Cover your cough. Stay home when sick. These are kindergarten-level cultural learnings. Yes, fine, but none of these involve suppressing a sneeze. The goalpost has shifted.

pizza 9y ago

Be that as it may, federal law does not require sick leave [0], so expecting people to act against their own interests is not the clear solution. The dilemma between - your livelihood & potential (costly) treatment - absence without sick pay goes beyond kindergarten-level because kindergarteners really don't have much to lose. Staying at home when you are sick, from the employer's perspective, should be vastly preferable. Even if the employer were totally heartless about people's health and only cared about money, it's a risk avoidance strategy that pays for itself many times over by reducing the chance the business collapses. They lose a negligible amount of productivity to reduce the risk they lose a significant amount of productivity. And yet, there are many employers who will hold you in contempt for asking they institute sick leave -- even if it's the only reasonable way to deal with the reality that people transfer sickness but also need to eat. Sick people act rationally when looking out for their own livelihood's continued existence. I agree it's definitely good to hope to gain recognition for your displays of respect towards your employer/coworkers. But if your employer/coworkers do not respect that you have jeopardized your livelihood for their benefit, the continued and self-inflicted cost is pretty much a total refutation of "good breeding", cultural learnings, or understanding what manners are for. And then, beyond the 1st-order consequences, there are 2nd-order (immunity/interpersonal/office politics) consequences of the decision to prevent people from coming into contact with all pathogens, if the primary aim is only to reduce the risk of extremely harmful pathogens (but those aren't particularly relevant to the discussion of individual decision-making). [0] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/sickleave https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/sickleave

jmcqk6 9y ago

As someone else mentioned, sick leave is not guaranteed. There are millions of people who have jobs where if you call in sick, you are risking your job. For years, my dad had 4 days off a year. That was both vacation and sick time. Any other time missed was time he wasn't getting paid for. People who read HN probably don't know what that's like for the most part, especially if you offer opinions like yours. You might have learned that in kindergarten but sometimes you gotta eat, too. Especially when others are depending on you.

collyw 9y ago

Screw that, I would prefer to take the risk of a cold than have to make up the work for lazy bastards who take a day of for a bit of a runny nose. There is a good chance I am going to get it anywhere else I go anyway (shops, public transport, anywhere public basically). Genuine sickness yes, but a bit of a cold where half of the office can manage to soldier on? I reckon I ought to get some sort of bonus for the fact I stay in shape, eat well and haven't had a sick day in a few years. Some people can't even avoid it because of their work, doctors receptionists for example.