5 ms·

There's a line of thinking that claims that 'true' objectivity is impossible, because even choosing what to speak about (or not) involves a degree of subjectivi

There's a line of thinking that claims that 'true' objectivity is impossible, because even choosing what to speak about (or not) involves a degree of subjectivity. This idea was taken to the extreme with outlets like Fox News, and I think we are witnessing a counter-move in the opposite direction as a result. Once the pendulum swings enough in that direction, and 'legitimate' news start being censored, the GP comment will probably feel a lot more relevant.

spdustin 9y ago
Fox News, when they report objectively factual accounts of world events, isn't "fake news". Breathlessly repeating irrelevant stories against the current political grain on Fox News? Still not fake news. Biased, sure. Selectively edited. But not fake. Reporting a rumor or an outright fiction in the form of an objectively factual account of a world event? That's fake. There is zero reason for the issue to be political. Either it's falsified on purpose and with an intent to deceive the consumer (a'la "Fake Gucci Purse") or it's not.
- jon_richards 9y ago
  Didn't fox news successfully fight a lawsuit by arguing they had no obligation not to lie?
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  Fox news displays plenty of "fake" (by any definition) news. They said the city of Birmingham in the UK was a place "where non-Muslims just simply don't go". Here's a sampling of 50 pretty obvious lies: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-fox-news-lies-6-seconds-daily-show/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-... An aside, I've literally read a story about a guy who writes "fake news" just for cash, and one of the headlines he made up for clicks, is the exact same as something that was actually said on Fox news: "Says Colorado food stamp recipients can use ATMs to get cash to buy marijuana." Here's an NPR story about the fake news creator, when he mentions this: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503... Ironically the last bit of Fox News I actually watched was a "fact-check" segment. In it, the first lady's claim that slaves had built the white house was "fact-checked". By which they meant they didn't actually contradict the fact (because it was true) but minimized it as much as possible, including throwing in the unsupported lie that the slaves were "well treated". We actually have documentary evidence written by the first lady that was in the white house at the time, that the slaves she saw building the white house were in fact poorly treated. But even if they were, why would you bring this up? Well-treated slaves are still slaves.
  - observation 9y ago
    Personally I think NPR is one of the worst offenders. It's not what they say, it's what they leave out. Those soothing dulcet tones are half way to hypnosis. I give you little credit for recognize Fox News propaganda because it's entry level manipulation. Most people who visit Huffpo know what it is. Organizations like the New York Times, NPR, The Economist and National Review have refined it to an art form. I take the latter group more seriously because large numbers of people buy into their lines but Fox and Huffpo are what WWF is to armed conflict. The New York Times is a Communist organization. That is not hyperbole, it is the truth. It's not well hidden if you go and look. They have always supported Communism. Likewise The Economist has always supported Fascist and other authoritarian dictatorships. Inside every friendly, well mannered, articulate moderate is an extremist trying to claw out. Us Westerners support all manner of extraordinary adventures because for ourselves at the center of world power this is a game that doesn't involve high stakes. The voters are complicit of course, we have prospered greatly over the centuries and like our comfortable lives that don't involve thorny questions. I don't feel bad about this, it's the same as every other civilization in history. Perhaps we ought to restrain ourselves more from saving the world if only to halt our plumbing the depths of grandiose neurosis. I think I've offended everybody now so I'll shut up.
    - alexryan 9y ago
      Quillette: Smearing Free Thought In Silicon Valley http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silicon-valley/ http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silico...
  - spdustin 9y ago
    And such lies are fiction. Fiction = fake. Was I unclear? Lies = fiction Fiction = fake Selective/subjectively editorialized truth = biased/misleading, but not fake Objective unbiased truth = not fake I'm not debating the ratios of any such types of news on any network.
- jorvi 9y ago
  > Fox news isn't fake news Haven't heard a good one like that in a while. Here is Bill O' Reilly on Amsterdam, with factual counterpoints: https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w
  - spdustin 9y ago
    You left off the qualifier, which makes your premise flawed. I did not state what you appear to quote. By reporting something I did not say, you literally uttered "fake news". Was that your intent? When any news outlet reports news objectively and factually, that reporting is not fake. When they report it with subjective editorialization, it's BIASED, but if it's TECHNICALLY TRUE, it's NOT FAKE. If it's a lie, it's fake. If it's fictional, it's fake. Your quote of my message, for example, was fictional. Is Fox News "fake news"? More often, it's simply blatant BIAS, but yes, certain hosts are well-known purveyors or FAKE news.
- spdustin 9y ago
  I feel like people replying missed the "when they report objectively factual accounts of world events" qualifier. They don't often do that. Fox News is deeply biased, that isn't in dispute. Only if they or another news outlet lie can the label "fake news" rightfully be applied. Fake = fictional. Anything else is a version of the truth. Biased <> fake.

spdustin 9y ago

Fox News, when they report objectively factual accounts of world events, isn't "fake news". Breathlessly repeating irrelevant stories against the current political grain on Fox News? Still not fake news. Biased, sure. Selectively edited. But not fake. Reporting a rumor or an outright fiction in the form of an objectively factual account of a world event? That's fake. There is zero reason for the issue to be political. Either it's falsified on purpose and with an intent to deceive the consumer (a'la "Fake Gucci Purse") or it's not.

jon_richards 9y ago
Didn't fox news successfully fight a lawsuit by arguing they had no obligation not to lie?
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
Fox news displays plenty of "fake" (by any definition) news. They said the city of Birmingham in the UK was a place "where non-Muslims just simply don't go". Here's a sampling of 50 pretty obvious lies: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-fox-news-lies-6-seconds-daily-show/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-... An aside, I've literally read a story about a guy who writes "fake news" just for cash, and one of the headlines he made up for clicks, is the exact same as something that was actually said on Fox news: "Says Colorado food stamp recipients can use ATMs to get cash to buy marijuana." Here's an NPR story about the fake news creator, when he mentions this: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503... Ironically the last bit of Fox News I actually watched was a "fact-check" segment. In it, the first lady's claim that slaves had built the white house was "fact-checked". By which they meant they didn't actually contradict the fact (because it was true) but minimized it as much as possible, including throwing in the unsupported lie that the slaves were "well treated". We actually have documentary evidence written by the first lady that was in the white house at the time, that the slaves she saw building the white house were in fact poorly treated. But even if they were, why would you bring this up? Well-treated slaves are still slaves.
- observation 9y ago
  Personally I think NPR is one of the worst offenders. It's not what they say, it's what they leave out. Those soothing dulcet tones are half way to hypnosis. I give you little credit for recognize Fox News propaganda because it's entry level manipulation. Most people who visit Huffpo know what it is. Organizations like the New York Times, NPR, The Economist and National Review have refined it to an art form. I take the latter group more seriously because large numbers of people buy into their lines but Fox and Huffpo are what WWF is to armed conflict. The New York Times is a Communist organization. That is not hyperbole, it is the truth. It's not well hidden if you go and look. They have always supported Communism. Likewise The Economist has always supported Fascist and other authoritarian dictatorships. Inside every friendly, well mannered, articulate moderate is an extremist trying to claw out. Us Westerners support all manner of extraordinary adventures because for ourselves at the center of world power this is a game that doesn't involve high stakes. The voters are complicit of course, we have prospered greatly over the centuries and like our comfortable lives that don't involve thorny questions. I don't feel bad about this, it's the same as every other civilization in history. Perhaps we ought to restrain ourselves more from saving the world if only to halt our plumbing the depths of grandiose neurosis. I think I've offended everybody now so I'll shut up.
  - alexryan 9y ago
    Quillette: Smearing Free Thought In Silicon Valley http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silicon-valley/ http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silico...
- spdustin 9y ago
  And such lies are fiction. Fiction = fake. Was I unclear? Lies = fiction Fiction = fake Selective/subjectively editorialized truth = biased/misleading, but not fake Objective unbiased truth = not fake I'm not debating the ratios of any such types of news on any network.
jorvi 9y ago
> Fox news isn't fake news Haven't heard a good one like that in a while. Here is Bill O' Reilly on Amsterdam, with factual counterpoints: https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w
- spdustin 9y ago
  You left off the qualifier, which makes your premise flawed. I did not state what you appear to quote. By reporting something I did not say, you literally uttered "fake news". Was that your intent? When any news outlet reports news objectively and factually, that reporting is not fake. When they report it with subjective editorialization, it's BIASED, but if it's TECHNICALLY TRUE, it's NOT FAKE. If it's a lie, it's fake. If it's fictional, it's fake. Your quote of my message, for example, was fictional. Is Fox News "fake news"? More often, it's simply blatant BIAS, but yes, certain hosts are well-known purveyors or FAKE news.
spdustin 9y ago
I feel like people replying missed the "when they report objectively factual accounts of world events" qualifier. They don't often do that. Fox News is deeply biased, that isn't in dispute. Only if they or another news outlet lie can the label "fake news" rightfully be applied. Fake = fictional. Anything else is a version of the truth. Biased <> fake.