4 ms·

Problematic to whom? Readers who seek a factual account of an event. Why is this so subjective, and why are people so riled up in these threads? News should b

Problematic to whom? Readers who seek a factual account of an event. Why is this so subjective, and why are people so riled up in these threads? News should be objectively true. If it isn't, it should be clearly flagged as opinion, or struck entirely as fiction, i.e. fake.

probably_wrong 9y ago
There's a line of thinking that claims that 'true' objectivity is impossible, because even choosing what to speak about (or not) involves a degree of subjectivity. This idea was taken to the extreme with outlets like Fox News, and I think we are witnessing a counter-move in the opposite direction as a result. Once the pendulum swings enough in that direction, and 'legitimate' news start being censored, the GP comment will probably feel a lot more relevant.
- spdustin 9y ago
  Fox News, when they report objectively factual accounts of world events, isn't "fake news". Breathlessly repeating irrelevant stories against the current political grain on Fox News? Still not fake news. Biased, sure. Selectively edited. But not fake. Reporting a rumor or an outright fiction in the form of an objectively factual account of a world event? That's fake. There is zero reason for the issue to be political. Either it's falsified on purpose and with an intent to deceive the consumer (a'la "Fake Gucci Purse") or it's not.
  - jon_richards 9y ago
    Didn't fox news successfully fight a lawsuit by arguing they had no obligation not to lie?
  - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
    Fox news displays plenty of "fake" (by any definition) news. They said the city of Birmingham in the UK was a place "where non-Muslims just simply don't go". Here's a sampling of 50 pretty obvious lies: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-fox-news-lies-6-seconds-daily-show/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-... An aside, I've literally read a story about a guy who writes "fake news" just for cash, and one of the headlines he made up for clicks, is the exact same as something that was actually said on Fox news: "Says Colorado food stamp recipients can use ATMs to get cash to buy marijuana." Here's an NPR story about the fake news creator, when he mentions this: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503... Ironically the last bit of Fox News I actually watched was a "fact-check" segment. In it, the first lady's claim that slaves had built the white house was "fact-checked". By which they meant they didn't actually contradict the fact (because it was true) but minimized it as much as possible, including throwing in the unsupported lie that the slaves were "well treated". We actually have documentary evidence written by the first lady that was in the white house at the time, that the slaves she saw building the white house were in fact poorly treated. But even if they were, why would you bring this up? Well-treated slaves are still slaves.
    - observation 9y ago
      Personally I think NPR is one of the worst offenders. It's not what they say, it's what they leave out. Those soothing dulcet tones are half way to hypnosis. I give you little credit for recognize Fox News propaganda because it's entry level manipulation. Most people who visit Huffpo know what it is. Organizations like the New York Times, NPR, The Economist and National Review have refined it to an art form. I take the latter group more seriously because large numbers of people buy into their lines but Fox and Huffpo are what WWF is to armed conflict. The New York Times is a Communist organization. That is not hyperbole, it is the truth. It's not well hidden if you go and look. They have always supported Communism. Likewise The Economist has always supported Fascist and other authoritarian dictatorships. Inside every friendly, well mannered, articulate moderate is an extremist trying to claw out. Us Westerners support all manner of extraordinary adventures because for ourselves at the center of world power this is a game that doesn't involve high stakes. The voters are complicit of course, we have prospered greatly over the centuries and like our comfortable lives that don't involve thorny questions. I don't feel bad about this, it's the same as every other civilization in history. Perhaps we ought to restrain ourselves more from saving the world if only to halt our plumbing the depths of grandiose neurosis. I think I've offended everybody now so I'll shut up.
      - alexryan 9y ago
        Quillette: Smearing Free Thought In Silicon Valley http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silicon-valley/ http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silico...
    - spdustin 9y ago
      And such lies are fiction. Fiction = fake. Was I unclear? Lies = fiction Fiction = fake Selective/subjectively editorialized truth = biased/misleading, but not fake Objective unbiased truth = not fake I'm not debating the ratios of any such types of news on any network.
  - jorvi 9y ago
    > Fox news isn't fake news Haven't heard a good one like that in a while. Here is Bill O' Reilly on Amsterdam, with factual counterpoints: https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w
    - spdustin 9y ago
      You left off the qualifier, which makes your premise flawed. I did not state what you appear to quote. By reporting something I did not say, you literally uttered "fake news". Was that your intent? When any news outlet reports news objectively and factually, that reporting is not fake. When they report it with subjective editorialization, it's BIASED, but if it's TECHNICALLY TRUE, it's NOT FAKE. If it's a lie, it's fake. If it's fictional, it's fake. Your quote of my message, for example, was fictional. Is Fox News "fake news"? More often, it's simply blatant BIAS, but yes, certain hosts are well-known purveyors or FAKE news.
  - spdustin 9y ago
    I feel like people replying missed the "when they report objectively factual accounts of world events" qualifier. They don't often do that. Fox News is deeply biased, that isn't in dispute. Only if they or another news outlet lie can the label "fake news" rightfully be applied. Fake = fictional. Anything else is a version of the truth. Biased <> fake.
pjc50 9y ago
The problem is not so much factual/nonfactual content as the opinion and contextualisation, as well as the choice of stories. You can generally tell the stuff that's at least trying to be an objective report because it's syndicated AP/newswire content and is substantially identical across the different news sites. But there's no real boundary between that and the opinion. e.g. opinion: http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/09/26/tucker-carlson-battles-attorney-over-race-nfl-protests http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/09/26/tucker-carlson-battles... news: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/09/27/mortar-rounds-land-at-kabul-airport-just-after-mattis-arrival.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/09/27/mortar-rounds-land-a... (both items selected from the Fox front page above the fold at time of writing) The simple act of deciding what is and is not "newsworthy" is not objective and cannot be made objective. So truly objective news is impossible.
eighthnate 9y ago
> Readers who seek a factual account of an event. "Factual"? You do realize that "events" have many different sides to the story right? > Why is this so subjective Because life is subjective and life is complicated. How about this? There is a lgbt protest in saudi arabia. The saudi arabian news says "Police stopped anti-islamic protest that offends muslims". Should that "factual" story be the only one allowed? It is factual right? > If it isn't, it should be clearly flagged as opinion, or struck entirely as fiction, i.e. fake. By whose standard? Who decides it's fake? You? So if the western media said "Saudi authorities attack peaceful lgbt protesters", then the saudis are right to block it as "fake" news right? Because it isn't "factual" right? If the story is fake, then expose the fakeness rather than banning it. It's better that people openly expose fake news.
jochung 9y ago
If the issue is truthfulness, then they should complain about that instead of labeling things as "problematic". The word is terminally underspecified, and its usage should be avoided for that reason. The fact that it's so popular is a sign people using it are not used to articulating their objections concretely, which is a red flag.

probably_wrong 9y ago

There's a line of thinking that claims that 'true' objectivity is impossible, because even choosing what to speak about (or not) involves a degree of subjectivity. This idea was taken to the extreme with outlets like Fox News, and I think we are witnessing a counter-move in the opposite direction as a result. Once the pendulum swings enough in that direction, and 'legitimate' news start being censored, the GP comment will probably feel a lot more relevant.

spdustin 9y ago
Fox News, when they report objectively factual accounts of world events, isn't "fake news". Breathlessly repeating irrelevant stories against the current political grain on Fox News? Still not fake news. Biased, sure. Selectively edited. But not fake. Reporting a rumor or an outright fiction in the form of an objectively factual account of a world event? That's fake. There is zero reason for the issue to be political. Either it's falsified on purpose and with an intent to deceive the consumer (a'la "Fake Gucci Purse") or it's not.
- jon_richards 9y ago
  Didn't fox news successfully fight a lawsuit by arguing they had no obligation not to lie?
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  Fox news displays plenty of "fake" (by any definition) news. They said the city of Birmingham in the UK was a place "where non-Muslims just simply don't go". Here's a sampling of 50 pretty obvious lies: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-fox-news-lies-6-seconds-daily-show/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/feb/26/50-... An aside, I've literally read a story about a guy who writes "fake news" just for cash, and one of the headlines he made up for clicks, is the exact same as something that was actually said on Fox news: "Says Colorado food stamp recipients can use ATMs to get cash to buy marijuana." Here's an NPR story about the fake news creator, when he mentions this: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503... Ironically the last bit of Fox News I actually watched was a "fact-check" segment. In it, the first lady's claim that slaves had built the white house was "fact-checked". By which they meant they didn't actually contradict the fact (because it was true) but minimized it as much as possible, including throwing in the unsupported lie that the slaves were "well treated". We actually have documentary evidence written by the first lady that was in the white house at the time, that the slaves she saw building the white house were in fact poorly treated. But even if they were, why would you bring this up? Well-treated slaves are still slaves.
  - observation 9y ago
    Personally I think NPR is one of the worst offenders. It's not what they say, it's what they leave out. Those soothing dulcet tones are half way to hypnosis. I give you little credit for recognize Fox News propaganda because it's entry level manipulation. Most people who visit Huffpo know what it is. Organizations like the New York Times, NPR, The Economist and National Review have refined it to an art form. I take the latter group more seriously because large numbers of people buy into their lines but Fox and Huffpo are what WWF is to armed conflict. The New York Times is a Communist organization. That is not hyperbole, it is the truth. It's not well hidden if you go and look. They have always supported Communism. Likewise The Economist has always supported Fascist and other authoritarian dictatorships. Inside every friendly, well mannered, articulate moderate is an extremist trying to claw out. Us Westerners support all manner of extraordinary adventures because for ourselves at the center of world power this is a game that doesn't involve high stakes. The voters are complicit of course, we have prospered greatly over the centuries and like our comfortable lives that don't involve thorny questions. I don't feel bad about this, it's the same as every other civilization in history. Perhaps we ought to restrain ourselves more from saving the world if only to halt our plumbing the depths of grandiose neurosis. I think I've offended everybody now so I'll shut up.
    - alexryan 9y ago
      Quillette: Smearing Free Thought In Silicon Valley http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silicon-valley/ http://quillette.com/2017/09/25/smearing-free-thought-silico...
  - spdustin 9y ago
    And such lies are fiction. Fiction = fake. Was I unclear? Lies = fiction Fiction = fake Selective/subjectively editorialized truth = biased/misleading, but not fake Objective unbiased truth = not fake I'm not debating the ratios of any such types of news on any network.
- jorvi 9y ago
  > Fox news isn't fake news Haven't heard a good one like that in a while. Here is Bill O' Reilly on Amsterdam, with factual counterpoints: https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w https://youtu.be/sTPsFIsxM3w
  - spdustin 9y ago
    You left off the qualifier, which makes your premise flawed. I did not state what you appear to quote. By reporting something I did not say, you literally uttered "fake news". Was that your intent? When any news outlet reports news objectively and factually, that reporting is not fake. When they report it with subjective editorialization, it's BIASED, but if it's TECHNICALLY TRUE, it's NOT FAKE. If it's a lie, it's fake. If it's fictional, it's fake. Your quote of my message, for example, was fictional. Is Fox News "fake news"? More often, it's simply blatant BIAS, but yes, certain hosts are well-known purveyors or FAKE news.
- spdustin 9y ago
  I feel like people replying missed the "when they report objectively factual accounts of world events" qualifier. They don't often do that. Fox News is deeply biased, that isn't in dispute. Only if they or another news outlet lie can the label "fake news" rightfully be applied. Fake = fictional. Anything else is a version of the truth. Biased <> fake.

pjc50 9y ago

The problem is not so much factual/nonfactual content as the opinion and contextualisation, as well as the choice of stories. You can generally tell the stuff that's at least trying to be an objective report because it's syndicated AP/newswire content and is substantially identical across the different news sites. But there's no real boundary between that and the opinion. e.g. opinion: http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/09/26/tucker-carlson-battles-attorney-over-race-nfl-protests http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/09/26/tucker-carlson-battles... news: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/09/27/mortar-rounds-land-at-kabul-airport-just-after-mattis-arrival.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/09/27/mortar-rounds-land-a... (both items selected from the Fox front page above the fold at time of writing) The simple act of deciding what is and is not "newsworthy" is not objective and cannot be made objective. So truly objective news is impossible.

eighthnate 9y ago

> Readers who seek a factual account of an event. "Factual"? You do realize that "events" have many different sides to the story right? > Why is this so subjective Because life is subjective and life is complicated. How about this? There is a lgbt protest in saudi arabia. The saudi arabian news says "Police stopped anti-islamic protest that offends muslims". Should that "factual" story be the only one allowed? It is factual right? > If it isn't, it should be clearly flagged as opinion, or struck entirely as fiction, i.e. fake. By whose standard? Who decides it's fake? You? So if the western media said "Saudi authorities attack peaceful lgbt protesters", then the saudis are right to block it as "fake" news right? Because it isn't "factual" right? If the story is fake, then expose the fakeness rather than banning it. It's better that people openly expose fake news.

jochung 9y ago

If the issue is truthfulness, then they should complain about that instead of labeling things as "problematic". The word is terminally underspecified, and its usage should be avoided for that reason. The fact that it's so popular is a sign people using it are not used to articulating their objections concretely, which is a red flag.