4 ms·

> They haven't changed a bit. o_0. I remember when I had to use tools to disassemble their precious source that they kept withheld and locked up. Now they post

> They haven't changed a bit. o_0. I remember when I had to use tools to disassemble their precious source that they kept withheld and locked up. Now they post their new tech to github and I can view all the source easily. Now they try to make their tech work on Linux. I'm all for fair criticism but your prose is not that, its dogma. If you think they're still the same company I can only imagine that you left your eyes behind in the 90's. The culture has shifted a lot towards the engineers and you need to appreciate the good things that happen in life otherwise all you'll see is gloom. They're by no means perfect but they are _different_.

cjsuk 9y ago
They're not really different though. People's memory is short. I've had access to MSFT source code before under shared source apart from the CSPs suspiciously, I've had symbol server around for years and been able to pop into framework code, then there's stuff like this: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc749640.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc749640.aspx - not even counting the amount of source coming from MSR etc. My criticism is not dogma, it's the regression in all the other areas that's the big problem. I appreciate not having to wade through treacle to get my job done. This has got considerably worse in the last 3-4 years as the platform sort of falls to pieces on a regular basis. Do you remember when server, dev tools, OS and platform all dropped at the same time? That was peak quality. What we have now is the diametric opposite. We have no direction with .Net Core other than all over the place, unmaintained crap falling out everywhere. It's hell. It's really difficult to build and manage a medium to large sized project when someone is smashing all the pieces off the board once a month. And also when you have to raise a defect with one of their products it is closed, ignored or via partner support "here's a registry fix you have to deploy to 2000 disparate companies to fix our product because we removed a UI option" type outcomes. The good things in life are where I start a project and run it to completion and the tools and frameworks perform as intended. That's not there any more. Things like python, golang and even Java offer better proposition. Even the tooling quality, such as Visual Studio 2017, we have to unconfigure a lot of features to make it stable (like CodeLens for example). I wouldn't even consider picking it as a platform to build a new project on now because of the time, rewrite and cost risk. What you see is marketing and front. What I see and oversee is a large team of people fighting this every day.
- Quarrelsome 9y ago
  Sorry we're now discussing completely different things and you acknowledge that they are "different" in regards to their lack of "peak quality". You are not arguing in good faith. Check yourself.
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    I disagree. I am merely relaying experience.
    - thanksgiving 9y ago
      I agree with you. I think most free software advocates are far too nice to say anything bad about people. Just look at dot net and how it is now "open source". Well, except it isn't because the dot net special interest group doesn't have the source code for tooling they need in order to meet fedora packaging guidelines. This is supposed to be the easy part because from what I understand they rewrote everything for .NET core. I was a big fan of dot net core and now I warn everyone of it. It is best to just avoid Microsoft in many cases.
    - Quarrelsome 9y ago
      To divert from the debate on their position on OSS. You started okay about Rotor but then went off on a rant. You're not interested in debating you just want to talk about how bad Microsoft are. I am stating they've changed somewhat since the Bill Gates days. Is my position really so fucking radical that it deserves your tangential rant about registry settings? Peak quality != OSS stance.
  - sumfag 9y ago
    No, you weren't. Gonna have to agree with your parent commenter that they are actively user-hostile and consumer-hostile, in addition to FOSS-hostile, even moreso than ever before for all the reasons stated above. Your comment right here shows me you have little to no argument left in you, despite your "good faith". I advise you check yourself Quarrelsome, since you devalued your own argument before it even got started. (fitting username)

cjsuk 9y ago

They're not really different though. People's memory is short. I've had access to MSFT source code before under shared source apart from the CSPs suspiciously, I've had symbol server around for years and been able to pop into framework code, then there's stuff like this: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc749640.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc749640.aspx - not even counting the amount of source coming from MSR etc. My criticism is not dogma, it's the regression in all the other areas that's the big problem. I appreciate not having to wade through treacle to get my job done. This has got considerably worse in the last 3-4 years as the platform sort of falls to pieces on a regular basis. Do you remember when server, dev tools, OS and platform all dropped at the same time? That was peak quality. What we have now is the diametric opposite. We have no direction with .Net Core other than all over the place, unmaintained crap falling out everywhere. It's hell. It's really difficult to build and manage a medium to large sized project when someone is smashing all the pieces off the board once a month. And also when you have to raise a defect with one of their products it is closed, ignored or via partner support "here's a registry fix you have to deploy to 2000 disparate companies to fix our product because we removed a UI option" type outcomes. The good things in life are where I start a project and run it to completion and the tools and frameworks perform as intended. That's not there any more. Things like python, golang and even Java offer better proposition. Even the tooling quality, such as Visual Studio 2017, we have to unconfigure a lot of features to make it stable (like CodeLens for example). I wouldn't even consider picking it as a platform to build a new project on now because of the time, rewrite and cost risk. What you see is marketing and front. What I see and oversee is a large team of people fighting this every day.

Quarrelsome 9y ago
Sorry we're now discussing completely different things and you acknowledge that they are "different" in regards to their lack of "peak quality". You are not arguing in good faith. Check yourself.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  I disagree. I am merely relaying experience.
  - thanksgiving 9y ago
    I agree with you. I think most free software advocates are far too nice to say anything bad about people. Just look at dot net and how it is now "open source". Well, except it isn't because the dot net special interest group doesn't have the source code for tooling they need in order to meet fedora packaging guidelines. This is supposed to be the easy part because from what I understand they rewrote everything for .NET core. I was a big fan of dot net core and now I warn everyone of it. It is best to just avoid Microsoft in many cases.
  - Quarrelsome 9y ago
    To divert from the debate on their position on OSS. You started okay about Rotor but then went off on a rant. You're not interested in debating you just want to talk about how bad Microsoft are. I am stating they've changed somewhat since the Bill Gates days. Is my position really so fucking radical that it deserves your tangential rant about registry settings? Peak quality != OSS stance.
- sumfag 9y ago
  No, you weren't. Gonna have to agree with your parent commenter that they are actively user-hostile and consumer-hostile, in addition to FOSS-hostile, even moreso than ever before for all the reasons stated above. Your comment right here shows me you have little to no argument left in you, despite your "good faith". I advise you check yourself Quarrelsome, since you devalued your own argument before it even got started. (fitting username)