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> Components, modules and a great UI layout system — just like regular desktop or mobile development. I don't understand this - I develop for all platforms (we

by inglor 9y ago

> Components, modules and a great UI layout system — just like regular desktop or mobile development. I don't understand this - I develop for all platforms (web, iOS, Android) and web is always much faster to develop for in terms of productivity. So much that a lot of mobile developers are starting to use web stacks (like react native).

inglor 9y ago
Even in platforms that _have_ "NetBeans UI Builder" like tools people tend to not use them. I and my iOS developer friends don't actually uses storyboards for actual UI in non-demo apps because it gets quirky and it's a lot easier to define from code. In Android (and other UI systems like WPF) declarative markup (XML) is often used directly with the view only used to see changes without having to compile (a problem web doesn't have, and Android is getting better at).
- ivm 9y ago
  Xcode's Interface Builder is just dated. Try Unity3d's component-based UI system with live editing during the "Play mode". It's so great to build everything visually with a tool like this.
flukus 9y ago
Much of that is because the android tools are absolutely horrid, they tried to make things simple but ended up making them insanely complicated. Compare a hello world tutorial for android (http://www.tutorialspoint.com/android/android_hello_world_example.htm http://www.tutorialspoint.com/android/android_hello_world_ex...) with one for the desktop (https://developer.gnome.org/gtk-tutorial/stable/c39.html#SEC-HELLOWORLD https://developer.gnome.org/gtk-tutorial/stable/c39.html#SEC...) to get an idea of just how crazy android is.
kbuchanan 9y ago
Early in my career, having mastered Visual Basic I decided it was beneath me and I'd move on to more sophisticated tools like J2EE. When Ruby was born, Java's IDEs and static tooling became stupid, because Real Developers(TM) use raw editors like vim and emacs. Years have passed, I develop less and manage more, but I still use vim and I've moved on to yet other languages. And now, 15 years into my career, I face the painful realization that VB remains the most productive environment I ever worked in. Yes, it was narrow. If Microsoft hadn't implemented an API for a feature, you waited for the next version. Therefore, this question does give me pause: Why has the web failed to produce an experience as productive as several (Visual Delphi, anyone?) options over a decade ago? Competition is the web's strength. But it's also its undoing. Personally I think this article is Quixotic—and I prefer a decentralized, ineffecient (JS), sort-of secure (HTTP), competitive web to whatever top-down integration visionaries might push—but I think he—and many older developers—are asking the same question: What happened?
- cellis 9y ago
  Same here, except replace VB with AS3/Flex. I've since moved on to learn ES5/6/7, rails, and react; react as concept is approaching flex in terms of productivity, but tooling is still not quite there. In terms of raw programming joy, I've not seen an editor as clean as FlashDevelop in years, and I say this as an avid Sublime Text 3 user. Sigh.
  - koonsolo 9y ago
    I fully agree with you, both on AS3 and FlashDevelop. This coming from a game developer.
- inglor 9y ago
  People often make this complaint with flash rather than with VB (although VB is also a nice example - thank you). The web platform aims to solve a _very broad_ problem. I don't know if you've used VB for big projects - but as someone with lots of nostalgia for VB6 (and winforms) it got very painful around the 20K LoC mark and didn't really support complex UIs in a very efficient way. There certainly _are_ visual builders for web design (literally hundreds - google "React UI builder" or "Angular UI builder" for some examples). They just haven't received adoption. I think it's because people always get weird UI requirements and the tools break. How many UI designers worked with you when you built UIs with VB? For me that number was 0. In general, UI is designed today in sketch/photoshop and then a tool like Zeplin is used to export the design's properties to code automatically.
  - kbuchanan 9y ago
    You're absolutely right: the web and its breadth of tooling solves A LOT more problems than VB or Flash could ever dream of.
    - narag 9y ago
      I disagree. I don't know about Flash and I just assume that VB was more or less like an underpowered Delphi. The problem was not tooling at all... at least with Delphi, please see my other comment.
jayd16 9y ago
I think the major reason people use things like react is because of the siren song of code reuse. More often then not, you end up with a worse product and a lot of platform specific work around code.
- 201709User 9y ago
  Don't forget cheap/reusable JS developer workforce.
rimliu 9y ago
How is web faster to develop than native? There is so much lame reinvention of the wheel going on.
- needz 9y ago
  I don't have any experience developing for native, but I don't mind other people reinventing the wheel for web if it ends up being a solid package I can import into my own projects, saving me a lot of time. In short, npm is why I think people might say that.
- whostolemyhat 9y ago
  Which wheels are being re-invented on the web?
- neurotrace 9y ago
  If you're constantly reinventing the wheel on the web then you're doing it wrong. Especially with the widespread adoption of package managers.
MarkMc 9y ago
I admit I don't have much experience with web or mobile apps, but I thought that some UI elements like 'pull down to refresh' or 'bottom navigation' [0] are harder to get 100% right in a web app. Am I wrong? [0] https://m.imgur.com/a/m63BW https://m.imgur.com/a/m63BW
- niutech 9y ago
  Of course it's a piece of cake with UI toolkits like: - ExtJS/Sencha Touch: http://examples.sencha.com/extjs/6.5.1/examples/kitchensink/?modern#bottom-tabs http://examples.sencha.com/extjs/6.5.1/examples/kitchensink/... - jQuery Mobile: http://demos.jquerymobile.com/1.4.2/navbar/ http://demos.jquerymobile.com/1.4.2/navbar/ - Ionic: https://ionicframework.com/docs/components/#tabs-icon-text https://ionicframework.com/docs/components/#tabs-icon-text - Onsen UI: https://onsen.io/v2/api/js/ons-tabbar.html https://onsen.io/v2/api/js/ons-tabbar.html

by inglor 9y ago

inglor 9y ago

Even in platforms that _have_ "NetBeans UI Builder" like tools people tend to not use them. I and my iOS developer friends don't actually uses storyboards for actual UI in non-demo apps because it gets quirky and it's a lot easier to define from code. In Android (and other UI systems like WPF) declarative markup (XML) is often used directly with the view only used to see changes without having to compile (a problem web doesn't have, and Android is getting better at).

ivm 9y ago
Xcode's Interface Builder is just dated. Try Unity3d's component-based UI system with live editing during the "Play mode". It's so great to build everything visually with a tool like this.

flukus 9y ago

Much of that is because the android tools are absolutely horrid, they tried to make things simple but ended up making them insanely complicated. Compare a hello world tutorial for android (http://www.tutorialspoint.com/android/android_hello_world_example.htm http://www.tutorialspoint.com/android/android_hello_world_ex...) with one for the desktop (https://developer.gnome.org/gtk-tutorial/stable/c39.html#SEC-HELLOWORLD https://developer.gnome.org/gtk-tutorial/stable/c39.html#SEC...) to get an idea of just how crazy android is.

kbuchanan 9y ago

Early in my career, having mastered Visual Basic I decided it was beneath me and I'd move on to more sophisticated tools like J2EE. When Ruby was born, Java's IDEs and static tooling became stupid, because Real Developers(TM) use raw editors like vim and emacs. Years have passed, I develop less and manage more, but I still use vim and I've moved on to yet other languages. And now, 15 years into my career, I face the painful realization that VB remains the most productive environment I ever worked in. Yes, it was narrow. If Microsoft hadn't implemented an API for a feature, you waited for the next version. Therefore, this question does give me pause: Why has the web failed to produce an experience as productive as several (Visual Delphi, anyone?) options over a decade ago? Competition is the web's strength. But it's also its undoing. Personally I think this article is Quixotic—and I prefer a decentralized, ineffecient (JS), sort-of secure (HTTP), competitive web to whatever top-down integration visionaries might push—but I think he—and many older developers—are asking the same question: What happened?

cellis 9y ago
Same here, except replace VB with AS3/Flex. I've since moved on to learn ES5/6/7, rails, and react; react as concept is approaching flex in terms of productivity, but tooling is still not quite there. In terms of raw programming joy, I've not seen an editor as clean as FlashDevelop in years, and I say this as an avid Sublime Text 3 user. Sigh.
- koonsolo 9y ago
  I fully agree with you, both on AS3 and FlashDevelop. This coming from a game developer.
inglor 9y ago
People often make this complaint with flash rather than with VB (although VB is also a nice example - thank you). The web platform aims to solve a _very broad_ problem. I don't know if you've used VB for big projects - but as someone with lots of nostalgia for VB6 (and winforms) it got very painful around the 20K LoC mark and didn't really support complex UIs in a very efficient way. There certainly _are_ visual builders for web design (literally hundreds - google "React UI builder" or "Angular UI builder" for some examples). They just haven't received adoption. I think it's because people always get weird UI requirements and the tools break. How many UI designers worked with you when you built UIs with VB? For me that number was 0. In general, UI is designed today in sketch/photoshop and then a tool like Zeplin is used to export the design's properties to code automatically.
- kbuchanan 9y ago
  You're absolutely right: the web and its breadth of tooling solves A LOT more problems than VB or Flash could ever dream of.
  - narag 9y ago
    I disagree. I don't know about Flash and I just assume that VB was more or less like an underpowered Delphi. The problem was not tooling at all... at least with Delphi, please see my other comment.

jayd16 9y ago

I think the major reason people use things like react is because of the siren song of code reuse. More often then not, you end up with a worse product and a lot of platform specific work around code.

201709User 9y ago
Don't forget cheap/reusable JS developer workforce.

rimliu 9y ago

How is web faster to develop than native? There is so much lame reinvention of the wheel going on.

needz 9y ago
I don't have any experience developing for native, but I don't mind other people reinventing the wheel for web if it ends up being a solid package I can import into my own projects, saving me a lot of time. In short, npm is why I think people might say that.
whostolemyhat 9y ago
Which wheels are being re-invented on the web?
neurotrace 9y ago
If you're constantly reinventing the wheel on the web then you're doing it wrong. Especially with the widespread adoption of package managers.

MarkMc 9y ago

I admit I don't have much experience with web or mobile apps, but I thought that some UI elements like 'pull down to refresh' or 'bottom navigation' [0] are harder to get 100% right in a web app. Am I wrong? [0] https://m.imgur.com/a/m63BW https://m.imgur.com/a/m63BW

niutech 9y ago
Of course it's a piece of cake with UI toolkits like: - ExtJS/Sencha Touch: http://examples.sencha.com/extjs/6.5.1/examples/kitchensink/?modern#bottom-tabs http://examples.sencha.com/extjs/6.5.1/examples/kitchensink/... - jQuery Mobile: http://demos.jquerymobile.com/1.4.2/navbar/ http://demos.jquerymobile.com/1.4.2/navbar/ - Ionic: https://ionicframework.com/docs/components/#tabs-icon-text https://ionicframework.com/docs/components/#tabs-icon-text - Onsen UI: https://onsen.io/v2/api/js/ons-tabbar.html https://onsen.io/v2/api/js/ons-tabbar.html