19 ms·
Russia Threatens to Shut Facebook Over Local Data Storage Laws
- diminish 9y agoThat's gonna be a deal breaker for global trade if after LinkedIn, FB gets banned. What remains is Google?
- toomuchtodo 9y agoChina banned WhatsApp. This isn't a big deal (Russia has their own Facebook-esq service; its the most popular site in Russia) [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_(social_networking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_(social_networking)
- vkou 9y agoLinkedIn and Facebook aren't getting banned. They have the option of complying with local operating requirements (Store data about Russian residents in Russia), or not operating. This is not a particularly draconian, onerous, or unreasonable requirement. (And is no different from that of the EU, sans safe harbour.) Other tech companies have been able to meet it. > Companies ranging from Alphabet Inc.’s Google to Alibaba Group Holding Ltd complied
- dannyobrien 9y agoIn the EU, even without the Safe Harbor, personal data was allowed to be transferred with a series of other agreements -- including explicit consent. That means that a user who didn't want their information kept in the EU, could arrange to have it stored elsewhere. Do you know if this possibility is available in the Russian situation?
- puzzle 9y agoHow did Google comply? There are no datacenters in Russia and it shut down the only engineering office there. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/12/google-closes-engineering-office-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/12/google-closes-...
- vkou 9y agoIt's always possible to store your data in the Russian equivalent of AWS. (Even if your web application and its secret sauce is running out of your own data center.)
- puzzle 9y agoI know how Google infrastructure worked up to a couple of years ago, including user-specific storage. What you describe would be a very large undertaking across a large number of projects. Due to legal restrictions, Maps has something ad-hoc just for South Korean tiles, which is a much simpler problem. Not only it's extremely clumsy, it also adds a lot of limitations: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31568460/google-maps-style-does-not-apply-to-the-korea-area https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31568460/google-maps-sty... https://www.theverge.com/tech/2013/10/13/4835026/why-google-cant-give-you-driving-directions-in-south-korea https://www.theverge.com/tech/2013/10/13/4835026/why-google-...
- guelo 9y agoThe utopian period of the web is ending. The future web will be much more balkanized and militarized. In the race between the web's competing revolutions of democratization of information vs mass surveillance and control, surveillance and control will win out as linear scaling, distributed, crowdsourced, democratic power won't be able to keep up with exponential scaling, centrally controlled, capital intensive, machine learning enhanced, mass control.
- FilterSweep 9y agoYou could argue it already ended with the corporatists' "Web 2.0". And PRISM. The only real difference now is that its entering the public's consciousness, and the ground is rife for authoritarians to present non-ideal solutions.
- cJ0th 9y ago> You could argue it already ended with the corporatists' "Web 2.0". And PRISM. What's more, FB and Co are to blame for these shutdowns of communication channels. Had we kept our communication decentralized governments would have a much harder time identifying communication services.
- kogepathic 9y ago> The utopian period of the web is ending. The future web will be much more balkanized and militarized. You could say that. I'd flip it around and say "It's amazing the world wide web has survived intact as long as it did, given the vastly different political ideologies in the world." Quite frankly, I consider it a small miracle we're all still using the same internet that's been around over 20 years. I absolutely think the future of the internet is regional/national versions of the internet, with limited/censored connectivity to other regions/nations. If not for political reasons, then because it's becoming too easy for nations to conduct devastating attacks on critical infrastructure without ever setting foot in the target country. [0] [1] If you're the target of a coordinated cyber attack against your infrastructure, and the remediation choices are either a complete overhaul of your infrastructure (on a software and physical level) or disconnection from the internet, I predict many nations will choose to voluntarily disconnect themselves from the internet. [0] https://www.wired.com/2016/03/inside-cunning-unprecedented-hack-ukraines-power-grid/ https://www.wired.com/2016/03/inside-cunning-unprecedented-h... [1] https://www.wired.com/2014/11/countdown-to-zero-day-stuxnet/ https://www.wired.com/2014/11/countdown-to-zero-day-stuxnet/
- mark024 9y agoDoes Russia even have laws?
- dmoy 9y agoThis is probably just Russian auditors starting to actually look at big companies' implementations of 242-FZ. There was precious little guidance given on exactly what a kosher implementation would be, so devs pms and lawyers just get together and make a good faith effort at it. Best guess from me is that auditors are disagreeing with that first round good faith effort from Facebook. My guess at the original purpose of 242 fz: This has absolutely nothing to do with the balkanization of the web, and everything to do with Russian law enforcement wanting a physical location they can easily roll into with a warrant. Nothing else really made sense to me at the time. Source: worked at big company on 242 fz compliance when it was about to hit. Edit: I remembered the ordering of number-letter incorrectly
- tryingagainbro 9y agoThere was precious little guidance given on exactly what a kosher implementation would be, so devs pms and lawyers just get together and make a good faith effort at it. I imagine that in Russia and similar countries, lack of guidance is by design. If you don't tow the FSB line, don't pay the bribes or if someone else wants your business, you've broken the law by not implementing federal law zxy52n. Edit: USA places a gazillion requirements for businesses (especially banks all over the world) so what Russia is doing is nothing extraordinary, on itself. They have their own FB so I doubt they'll miss much even if FB was banned tomorrow.
- dmoy 9y agoWell to be fair, even the US doesn't always given an abundance of guidance on everything. For a random example, up until irs notice 2014-54, it was a bit shady exactly how you could get away with roth ira backdoor from your 401k. I lack enough info and context to say where this particular law lies.
- tryingagainbro 9y agoTrue, but the idea is that in USA eventually you can go to an independent court and sort it out. or the agency will explain it more--something that applies to everyone.
- dleslie 9y agoI have no problem with countries demanding that their citizen's data be stored within their borders and subject to their laws alone. As a Canadian, I take it as a given that any data of mine or about me that's stored on American soil is to be considered as-good-as-public, thanks to their alleged willingness to go so far as to steal sensitive data and share it with competing American interests. [0] 0: https://google.com/search?hl=en&q=nsa+handed+trade+secrets+to+american+company https://google.com/search?hl=en&q=nsa+handed+trade+secrets+t...
- dannyobrien 9y agoOut of interest, would you be happy with this if you had no option, and such storage was obligatory? I.e., to be hypothetical, suppose a resident of Canada who did not want their personal information kept within Canada because they were under surveillance from the United States, and they knew that Canada shared information with the U.S. government. Would you approve of a law that gave that person no choice in where they stored their personal data?
- ocdtrekkie 9y agoNot the parent, but in my view, this wouldn't be significantly different than the world outside the Internet. A citizen and their possessions are rarely if ever outside the legal jurisdiction of the nation they are a part of. I do not see why the Internet should be any different than this. If there is a problem with the government, the solution needs to be to fix that government, not try to evade it or operate outside of it.
- dannyobrien 9y agoI'm not sure your metaphor works, even as a description of the current state of affairs. I can send my possessions anywhere I want, and I'm not limited in where I keep my possessions. We don't generally place bans on moving legal possessions.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
- raquo 9y agoDoes anyone know how they identify Russian citizens?
- vkou 9y agoDepends on the particulars of the company. If I know anything about risk-averse corporations, most of them would rather err on the side of considering you a Russian citizen.
- digi_owl 9y agoAs a first approximation they could be looking at what IP you connect from. unless it is coming from a known TOR exit point (and famously Facebook even operates an .onion address) or some VPN, that would give an indication what nation you reside in. After that i guess they would look at what data you have given them.
- smueller1234 9y agoThe legal advice we got when we implemented things for this regulation was to go with geo-ip. And then people travel and you have profiles spanning across borders. (Or VPNs, or...)
- Akujin 9y agoThey want all the data cloned in Russia so that they can spy on Russians and non Russians alike. Better to just say good bye to Russia and let them kick dirt.
- thg 9y ago> They want all the data cloned in Russia so that they can spy on Russians and non Russians alike. So, the Russian equivalent of what the NSA has been doing the last 20 years? I find it far more likely that this is a sensible move to protect the data of Russian citizens from the US, who have shown time and again that they can't be trusted in these matters.
- mtmail 9y agoYes, that seems to be the reasoning for EU privacy regulations (GDPR) as well.
- matthewbauer 9y agoI'm surprised people are defending this law. I mean, Facebook is a US company but the law applies to every country, right? Not that US privacy practices should be defended, it just seems like knee-jerk anti-American sentiment.
- int_19h 9y agoThe difference is that NSA tries to keep things secret, because they knew that what they were doing is wrong, and that citizens won't like it if it comes out, it's going to be challenged in courts etc. In Russia, there's a public law that mandates ISPs to install surveillance equipment that federal law enforcement agency can use basically at will (for now, they still need technically warrants, although in practice it's impossible to enforce; next year, a new law comes into force that removes the requirement for a warrant). And another public law, which requires ISPs to block websites according to a list that is maintained by the government.
- Sacho 9y ago> it's going to be challenged in courts etc How are those challenges going? Any courts out there overruling FISC? > In Russia, there's a public law that mandates ISPs to install surveillance equipment that federal law enforcement agency can use basically at will It's public law that created FISC(FISA @ 1978) and it's public law(Patriot Act, third party doctrine) that gave them the power to authorize the NSA's surveillance.
- readhn 9y agoI can see both sides here, on one side - CIA/NSA has hands in facebook data, on the other hand FSB/GRU want same access to this data. This is a battle for our data, (which we give away "for free").
- slezyr 9y agoOk, I think that FB will comply. They did a lot to be present in China, so they will do same here. But I have one simple question: Should be data of Crimean users stored in Russian or not?
- Strom 9y agoOne way to soften the political blow of that question would be to store Crimean user data in Crimea.
- leggomylibro 9y agoLet's go one step further, and store data about individuals in their own homes.
- gotts 9y agolol
- vkou 9y agoGiven that Crimea is now part of Russia, this would mean storing it in Russia.
- Strom 9y agoThere are Russian forces in Crimea sure, but so are US forces in South Korea, or in Afghanistan if you prefer active combat. Doesn't mean they're US territories. Most countries see Crimea as part of Ukraine. [1] -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_68/262 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl...
- Demiurge 9y agoWhat do the people of South Korea, Afghanistan, and Crimea think?
- 9y ago
- throw2016 9y agoThere is an inevitability about it. The desire for people to people connection and a global consciousness was there but most idealists would have realized it's a fantasy and parochialism and nations states are not going away. It's easy for us to be blase about it but if it were Russian and Chinese companies vacuuming up our data and not afraid to share it with their governments, there would be end of the world hysteria by media, academics and commentators about 'our freedom', the american way, and how awful these totalitarian countries were. Now since its us caught with our pants down with draconian surveillance, secret courts, secret orders and collaboration with little to no pushback from the loudest defenders of freedom more interested in posturing and feeling smug than defending any values they articulate, other countries need to wisen up and protect their citizens and their interests. Anything is better than leaving it to US based companies with an insatiable appetite for user data and vested in spying on everyone all over the internet with zero constraints or sense of either corporate and individual ethics for the thousands of engineers involved in this, supported by an of control unrestrained surveillance culture in government.
- btilly 9y agoThis happens the day after Facebook embarrassed Russia and its own stock price by verifying how Russian advertising accounts were used to manipulate the US election. Coincidence?
- taf2 9y agoWas this about Russia?
- btilly 9y agoAccording to the title, this is Russia taking action against Facebook. Right after https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/russian-operatives-used-facebook-ads-to-exploit-divisions-over-black-political-activism-and-muslims/2017/09/25/4a011242-a21b-11e7-ade1-76d061d56efa_story.html?utm_term=.c8b6ae92b216 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/russian-o... yesterday where Facebook did something that embarrassed Russia.
- Pilfer 9y agoNo you're wrong on stock price, tech stocks all went down Monday. Google, Microsoft, Netflix, Nvidia, Facebook, Tesla, all down. Facebook announced further Russia advertising findings on Sept 21, and on Sept 22 the stock price barely changed. The Russia factor was already priced in on Friday, before all tech stocks fell on Monday.
- btilly 9y agoTech stocks all went down, FB went down more than the others by quite a bit. See https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/facebook-fb-stock-markets-eye-zuckerberg-share-sales-russia-probe.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/facebook-fb-stock-markets-ey... for a sample news story tying the two together.
- dreamfactored 9y agoThis is exactly why interoperable federated social platforms are important and why they are a better solution than centralised platforms. The future is a choice between per jurisdiction walled garden monopolies under national control and multiple interoperable solutions.
- fiokoden 9y agoI say shut it. Dump the difficult governments.
- tibarun 9y agoThat would stop Facebook from interfering in Russian elections.