6 ms·

Good sauce. FOIA has been somewhat of an obsession of mine for a few years now and I can't recommend its use enough. It's difficult, full of legal and non-legal

Good sauce. FOIA has been somewhat of an obsession of mine for a few years now and I can't recommend its use enough. It's difficult, full of legal and non-legal gotchas from front to back in every state I've sent requests to, but damn is it worth it in the end. In particular, the direct visibility into how our government works and how it communicates with requesters is extremely eye opening. It's very, very non-reciprocal. Fun and ongoing story.. Recently I did a request for the metadata of all emails sent and received by a seattle.gov email address. They first gave me an estimate of 32 million dollars, 320 years for redaction and 25k/yr for storing a few tb. A few months later (and ~$35.00 later) , they ended up sending me millions of emails on accident, thinking they only sent metadata. After reporting it to their CPO and CTO, they decided to escalate the problem by offering me legal indemnification for deleting the files and having a 3rd party company scan my drives for those emails. It was never directly stated, but it sounded like they had full intent of creating warrants for my disks, virtual or otherwise, we're going to be made. Thankfully, they're leaning on an accepting a signed affidavit that states I deleted the emails. All because they sent me the wrong info. It feels very much like a combination of gaslighting and extortion. FOIA is a strange, strange thing..

trendia 9y ago
On what grounds could they get a warrant? They made the mistake, not you.
- bpchaps 9y ago
  I'm not sure what the specifics would be, but it would very likely be related to the emails that contained ongoing FBI investigations. (Which, for the record, is deleted and unshared.)
- duxup 9y ago
  Possibly the emails contain information that could harm a third party? In that case they would maybe have an incentive to investigate and be sure that the information was destroyed.
  - throwaway76543 9y ago
    I think he's asking what grounds authorities might have to demand destruction of the information. Is there a legal pretext for going after information like this?
    - cwkoss 9y ago
      Could the feds POST a confidential JSON blob to an arbitrary server to obtain a warrant to inspect that server's hard drive?
      - quuquuquu 9y ago
        This actually sounds like a legitimate threat vector. It's a bit like entrapment. You offer something they don't know they want, and then arrest them for interacting with you.
      - lovich 9y ago
        Hell, if they could inspect someone's drives based on sending them data it would make all warrants with computers trivial to get. Write a little script that just sends the data and doesn't even check if message is sent successfully, send a classified file to everyone you want to search, and bam you have legal access to anyone's computer at any time. It would be even more of a joke of probable cause than "I smelled marijuana" if the courts allowed it
      - therein 9y ago
        Or even worse a querystring containing matters of national security so we need access to your access logs.
      - anitil 9y ago
        Have you ever considered the fact that you might be a genius? An evil genius for sure, but still.
        cwkoss 9y ago
        I enjoy thinking about how to break systems. >:)
- chiph 9y ago
  Fault isn't the issue - possession is.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Although they probably tell the auditors the opposite, there is all sorts of potential data in there that is illegal to possess. Everything from the details of active police investigations, identity of undercover officers, pictures of abused children, investigations of child abuse, to HR matters, to attorney-client privileged information to secret tax data. In many cases, unaauthorized possession (and disclosure for the government person) is a felony. People do incredibly stupid things with email.
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- deleted 9y ago
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Asparagirl 9y ago
Make sure you submit this story to the EFF's annual Foilies awards late this year or early next year. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/foilies-2017 https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/foilies-2017 My Missouri Sunshine Law request won the Outrageous Fee award this year, and I was "only" being charged $1.5 million. I look forward to passing the crown to you.
- bpchaps 9y ago
  Hah, I bittersweetingly accept!
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Congratulations, both for the award and for not getting your Sunshine request honored by the state of Missouri. I've filed a series of Sunshine requests with the Department of Natural Resources, and as a result of the awful things I've learned I am quite uneasy about drinking water in this state. After badgering the "Chief of Compliance and Enforcement" about his failure to take any action about polluting facilities "referred to enforcement", he finally claimed that taking polluters to court is a waste of time, because judges in this state always rule in favor of polluters. I'm not sure that's true, but if the official in his office actually believes it, it may as well be. From my limited exposure, it gets no better at the federal level. One facility I've complained about shut down completely (i.e. went out of business) for half a year (the creek downhill quickly cleared up), but the charlatan at EPA still claimed it wasn't a "recommencing discharger" as used by 40 CFR 122.47, when it sold to a new owner and opened again for business with the same shambolic unengineered leaking lagoons six months later.
and0 9y ago
Have you found a concise portal / wiki for FOIA resources, information, and tools? I would always find myself tripping on local laws or strange requirements from individual agencies. I remember when the FBI said they would close the electronic portal down and only allow fax, seemingly just to add another hurdle. I started looking into plugging a web interface into a cloud faxing service that would let people submit just as easily, but they reverted the rules under pressure. (If I remember correctly, they still only allow electronic submissions during a certain set of "business hours", even though it's just a webform that probably pops your request into a database / email anyway. Truly a head-scratcher.)
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  https://www.muckrock.com https://www.muckrock.com
- bpchaps 9y ago
  Muckrock as another poster mentioned, but they're not as comprehensive as I'd hope and their business model kind of ironically paywalls information. A good strategy I've used is to read similar requests beforehand. It's a great way to see what's possible. Reporter's Committee for the Freedom of Press wrote a guide for every state which I use as a great goto: https://www.rcfp.org/open-government-guide https://www.rcfp.org/open-government-guide I've been compiling this for a bit for my own notes, which you might also find helpful. "PRs" welcome :) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdFYkO5QRMi0w2HeCwWmYopQnl2tP4HH--WkieFBCKY https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdFYkO5QRMi0w2HeCwWm...
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jasonm23 9y ago
> It feels very much like a combination of gaslighting and extortion. So very much like all government interactions with it's citizenry?

trendia 9y ago

On what grounds could they get a warrant? They made the mistake, not you.

bpchaps 9y ago
I'm not sure what the specifics would be, but it would very likely be related to the emails that contained ongoing FBI investigations. (Which, for the record, is deleted and unshared.)
duxup 9y ago
Possibly the emails contain information that could harm a third party? In that case they would maybe have an incentive to investigate and be sure that the information was destroyed.
- throwaway76543 9y ago
  I think he's asking what grounds authorities might have to demand destruction of the information. Is there a legal pretext for going after information like this?
  - cwkoss 9y ago
    Could the feds POST a confidential JSON blob to an arbitrary server to obtain a warrant to inspect that server's hard drive?
    - quuquuquu 9y ago
      This actually sounds like a legitimate threat vector. It's a bit like entrapment. You offer something they don't know they want, and then arrest them for interacting with you.
    - lovich 9y ago
      Hell, if they could inspect someone's drives based on sending them data it would make all warrants with computers trivial to get. Write a little script that just sends the data and doesn't even check if message is sent successfully, send a classified file to everyone you want to search, and bam you have legal access to anyone's computer at any time. It would be even more of a joke of probable cause than "I smelled marijuana" if the courts allowed it
    - therein 9y ago
      Or even worse a querystring containing matters of national security so we need access to your access logs.
    - anitil 9y ago
      Have you ever considered the fact that you might be a genius? An evil genius for sure, but still.
      - cwkoss 9y ago
        I enjoy thinking about how to break systems. >:)
chiph 9y ago
Fault isn't the issue - possession is.
Spooky23 9y ago
Although they probably tell the auditors the opposite, there is all sorts of potential data in there that is illegal to possess. Everything from the details of active police investigations, identity of undercover officers, pictures of abused children, investigations of child abuse, to HR matters, to attorney-client privileged information to secret tax data. In many cases, unaauthorized possession (and disclosure for the government person) is a felony. People do incredibly stupid things with email.

deleted 9y ago

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deleted 9y ago
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Asparagirl 9y ago

Make sure you submit this story to the EFF's annual Foilies awards late this year or early next year. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/foilies-2017 https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/foilies-2017 My Missouri Sunshine Law request won the Outrageous Fee award this year, and I was "only" being charged $1.5 million. I look forward to passing the crown to you.

bpchaps 9y ago
Hah, I bittersweetingly accept!
jessaustin 9y ago
Congratulations, both for the award and for not getting your Sunshine request honored by the state of Missouri. I've filed a series of Sunshine requests with the Department of Natural Resources, and as a result of the awful things I've learned I am quite uneasy about drinking water in this state. After badgering the "Chief of Compliance and Enforcement" about his failure to take any action about polluting facilities "referred to enforcement", he finally claimed that taking polluters to court is a waste of time, because judges in this state always rule in favor of polluters. I'm not sure that's true, but if the official in his office actually believes it, it may as well be. From my limited exposure, it gets no better at the federal level. One facility I've complained about shut down completely (i.e. went out of business) for half a year (the creek downhill quickly cleared up), but the charlatan at EPA still claimed it wasn't a "recommencing discharger" as used by 40 CFR 122.47, when it sold to a new owner and opened again for business with the same shambolic unengineered leaking lagoons six months later.

and0 9y ago

Have you found a concise portal / wiki for FOIA resources, information, and tools? I would always find myself tripping on local laws or strange requirements from individual agencies. I remember when the FBI said they would close the electronic portal down and only allow fax, seemingly just to add another hurdle. I started looking into plugging a web interface into a cloud faxing service that would let people submit just as easily, but they reverted the rules under pressure. (If I remember correctly, they still only allow electronic submissions during a certain set of "business hours", even though it's just a webform that probably pops your request into a database / email anyway. Truly a head-scratcher.)

toomuchtodo 9y ago
https://www.muckrock.com https://www.muckrock.com
bpchaps 9y ago
Muckrock as another poster mentioned, but they're not as comprehensive as I'd hope and their business model kind of ironically paywalls information. A good strategy I've used is to read similar requests beforehand. It's a great way to see what's possible. Reporter's Committee for the Freedom of Press wrote a guide for every state which I use as a great goto: https://www.rcfp.org/open-government-guide https://www.rcfp.org/open-government-guide I've been compiling this for a bit for my own notes, which you might also find helpful. "PRs" welcome :) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdFYkO5QRMi0w2HeCwWmYopQnl2tP4HH--WkieFBCKY https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdFYkO5QRMi0w2HeCwWm...

deleted 9y ago

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jasonm23 9y ago

> It feels very much like a combination of gaslighting and extortion. So very much like all government interactions with it's citizenry?