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John has been arguing very petulantly lately that all/most smart phones enjoy the same signal attenuation that the iPhone 4 does. Whether true or not, the loca

John has been arguing very petulantly lately that all/most smart phones enjoy the same signal attenuation that the iPhone 4 does. Whether true or not, the location of the band is particularly ill conceived, as it is touched by holding it in nearly any comfortable position, even with the ring finger when held in the right hand and in the left as demonstrated by Jobs himself. The fact that the antenna is externally conductive is the real issue here, as it has been demonstrated that antenna performance is significantly improved by placing a piece of duct tape or other insulating material over the band gap. It is very clearly, then, a poor design to not have insulated the antenna in a non-conductive coating. This is not a logic test that anyone should fail. Does the antenna have a conductivity issue when held in the hand? If yes, can the conductivity issue be resolved with minimal impact on design thereby improving performance? If yes, did Apple implement such a design? If no, isn't Apple guilty of releasing a product with an inherent design flaw? I think the answer is a resounding yes. I also think other smart phones do not factor into the discussion in a meaningful way.

wyclif 16y ago
Here's my problem with Apple in a nutshell: when things are going swimmingly for them design-wise, iPhones are not smartphones. But when things go awry, iPhones are just smartphones, you see? All smartphones have these attenuation issues, so stop harshing us here in Cupertino, mkay?
- jsz0 16y ago
  It might be just a tiny bit unreasonable to expect companies not to do positive advertising/PR for their products.
sans-serif 16y ago
Gruber regularly scouts HN for feedbacks so let's hope he answers this one. He's been too much in a rush to defend Apple lately and this is a gaping flaw in his chain of reasonings. His "different but not worse [on average]" line makes no sense when (based on various pieces he link to from his blog) 1) it's very easy (as with other phones) to hit the spot accidentally and 2) the worst-case attenuation is significantly worse than those of other phones. You don't need a degree in statistics to see that something doesn't add up.
- kenthorvath 16y ago
  Well, whether he responds to this thread or not, he has already made a public statement, which seemingly contradicts his other comments on the matter: "I don’t know if this signal-degradation-in-left-hand thing is really a widespread problem or not yet, but it’s not reasonable to tell people not to hold the phone this way." - John Gruber (Daring Fireball)
jsz0 16y ago
I doubt they could have designed, tested and produced this type of fix in 22 days. People calling for a recall are kind of arguing against their own logic. They want Apple to rush out a design change and apparently skip all the testing (durability, RF considerations) while claiming the lack of testing caused the original problem. I would guess durability is a bigger concern than RF. The outer edge of the phone gets the most abuse. A thin non-conductive coating could chip or wear in an unpleasant way. The bumper case is a good enough solution for now. The only other alternative is to stop selling the iPhone for 2-3 months or however long it takes to make a design change and produce enough units to do a recall. That's going to upset a lot more people than an extra dropped call here and there I bet.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- moe 16y ago
  That's going to upset a lot more people than an extra dropped call here and there I bet. Only shareholders, not users.
  - amatheus 16y ago
    Well, I always hear there are iPhone shortages, so it would annoy users too. I'm still waiting for the iPhone 4 to come to Brazil and would be VERY annoyed if there was a new delay on top of the already long lag between the iPhone 4 launch in the US and in the Brazil.
mechanical_fish 16y ago
isn't Apple guilty of releasing a product with an inherent design flaw? Yes. Many times. Just like almost every other engineer, including one hundred percent of those who practice agile methods and release minimum viable products. Also: Jimmy Carter was guilty of adultery in his heart. I'm struck by the fact that Apple criticism has acquired this theological tone. It's like Catholics debating the nature of original sin. Were the engineers born in perdition, or did they fall from grace? Can they be redeemed by faith alone, or must they perform good works, and how many additional Hail Marys are necessary? The bottom line is that this particular issue, whatever its Platonic form, is apparently not serious enough to get me off the iPhone waiting list. I am getting bored with waiting. Return your phones, people! The other bottom line is that mobile phone discussions used to occasionally stray to other companies besides Apple, other products besides iPhone and other people besides Steve Jobs. Now, apparently, there is nothing better to do but debate the color of Steve's invisible halo. Is this a signifier of the state of the industry right now? At some point, Motorola will release an exploding phone just to get a share of all the press.
- kenthorvath 16y ago
  not serious enough to get me off the iPhone waiting list. So, you don't actually own an iPhone 4, and haven't suffered with this issue, then? I hope your experience will be much better than mine. Truly.
  - towndrunk 16y ago
    Did you return yours?
    - kenthorvath 16y ago
      Would that change the validity of either (a) my initial argument that Apple made an error, or (b) my correct observation that somebody was commenting on an issue with which he or she may not have any first-hand experience? Notice I never argued that Apple's error was severe enough that the only rational recourse was to return the phone itself. So, perhaps I did; perhaps I didn't. It's just not relevant.
ubernostrum 16y ago
If no, isn't Apple guilty of releasing a product with an inherent design flaw? Except this is entirely the wrong question to ask. More appropriate from an engineering perspective would be: is this an acceptable trade-off? Is there an attenuation issue? Yes. Does it appear, from independent testing, that the iPhone 4's antenna is nonetheless much more sensitive than previous models and much better at holding onto calls with low signal? Yes. These are the two sides of the trade-off, and the only useful question we can ask is whether this trade-off is acceptable. Because, ultimately, engineering is all about trade-offs. You give up this, you get that, and you aim to make the best trades you can.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

wyclif 16y ago

Here's my problem with Apple in a nutshell: when things are going swimmingly for them design-wise, iPhones are not smartphones. But when things go awry, iPhones are just smartphones, you see? All smartphones have these attenuation issues, so stop harshing us here in Cupertino, mkay?

jsz0 16y ago
It might be just a tiny bit unreasonable to expect companies not to do positive advertising/PR for their products.

sans-serif 16y ago

Gruber regularly scouts HN for feedbacks so let's hope he answers this one. He's been too much in a rush to defend Apple lately and this is a gaping flaw in his chain of reasonings. His "different but not worse [on average]" line makes no sense when (based on various pieces he link to from his blog) 1) it's very easy (as with other phones) to hit the spot accidentally and 2) the worst-case attenuation is significantly worse than those of other phones. You don't need a degree in statistics to see that something doesn't add up.

kenthorvath 16y ago
Well, whether he responds to this thread or not, he has already made a public statement, which seemingly contradicts his other comments on the matter: "I don’t know if this signal-degradation-in-left-hand thing is really a widespread problem or not yet, but it’s not reasonable to tell people not to hold the phone this way." - John Gruber (Daring Fireball)

jsz0 16y ago

I doubt they could have designed, tested and produced this type of fix in 22 days. People calling for a recall are kind of arguing against their own logic. They want Apple to rush out a design change and apparently skip all the testing (durability, RF considerations) while claiming the lack of testing caused the original problem. I would guess durability is a bigger concern than RF. The outer edge of the phone gets the most abuse. A thin non-conductive coating could chip or wear in an unpleasant way. The bumper case is a good enough solution for now. The only other alternative is to stop selling the iPhone for 2-3 months or however long it takes to make a design change and produce enough units to do a recall. That's going to upset a lot more people than an extra dropped call here and there I bet.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
moe 16y ago
That's going to upset a lot more people than an extra dropped call here and there I bet. Only shareholders, not users.
- amatheus 16y ago
  Well, I always hear there are iPhone shortages, so it would annoy users too. I'm still waiting for the iPhone 4 to come to Brazil and would be VERY annoyed if there was a new delay on top of the already long lag between the iPhone 4 launch in the US and in the Brazil.

mechanical_fish 16y ago

isn't Apple guilty of releasing a product with an inherent design flaw? Yes. Many times. Just like almost every other engineer, including one hundred percent of those who practice agile methods and release minimum viable products. Also: Jimmy Carter was guilty of adultery in his heart. I'm struck by the fact that Apple criticism has acquired this theological tone. It's like Catholics debating the nature of original sin. Were the engineers born in perdition, or did they fall from grace? Can they be redeemed by faith alone, or must they perform good works, and how many additional Hail Marys are necessary? The bottom line is that this particular issue, whatever its Platonic form, is apparently not serious enough to get me off the iPhone waiting list. I am getting bored with waiting. Return your phones, people! The other bottom line is that mobile phone discussions used to occasionally stray to other companies besides Apple, other products besides iPhone and other people besides Steve Jobs. Now, apparently, there is nothing better to do but debate the color of Steve's invisible halo. Is this a signifier of the state of the industry right now? At some point, Motorola will release an exploding phone just to get a share of all the press.

kenthorvath 16y ago
not serious enough to get me off the iPhone waiting list. So, you don't actually own an iPhone 4, and haven't suffered with this issue, then? I hope your experience will be much better than mine. Truly.
- towndrunk 16y ago
  Did you return yours?
  - kenthorvath 16y ago
    Would that change the validity of either (a) my initial argument that Apple made an error, or (b) my correct observation that somebody was commenting on an issue with which he or she may not have any first-hand experience? Notice I never argued that Apple's error was severe enough that the only rational recourse was to return the phone itself. So, perhaps I did; perhaps I didn't. It's just not relevant.

ubernostrum 16y ago

If no, isn't Apple guilty of releasing a product with an inherent design flaw? Except this is entirely the wrong question to ask. More appropriate from an engineering perspective would be: is this an acceptable trade-off? Is there an attenuation issue? Yes. Does it appear, from independent testing, that the iPhone 4's antenna is nonetheless much more sensitive than previous models and much better at holding onto calls with low signal? Yes. These are the two sides of the trade-off, and the only useful question we can ask is whether this trade-off is acceptable. Because, ultimately, engineering is all about trade-offs. You give up this, you get that, and you aim to make the best trades you can.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]