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Not much love for biking here; You'd almost think that most of the people on Hacker News are from Californian suburbs... Seriously though, biking in cities is

by verelo 9y ago

Not much love for biking here; You'd almost think that most of the people on Hacker News are from Californian suburbs... Seriously though, biking in cities is great. It's one of those critical mass problems where the more people that do it the better the infrastructure gets, the more aware drivers become and there is a herd mentality where bikers tend to flow together making them more predictable and therefore safer to be around. I bike and drive in Toronto [i probably drive more than bike, depends on the weather and somewhat the mood i'm in], both have big up and downsides, just be considerate to everyone which ever you're taking part in! Edit: I forgot to say, those Citi bikes in NYC [Bikeshare in Toronto, Santander in London] have a special cohort of people riding them. The bikes are so slow [heavy!!!], and the riders are casual riders. I love that it gets people moving, and I use them from time to time, but damn the whole experience of riding next to one is scary even as another biker.

rockostrich 9y ago
Your edit is my one problem with the bike sharing programs in cities. As an everyday commuter if I see someone on their own bike it's usually a pretty safe assumption that they're aware of their surroundings. The casual riders make a lot of dangerous decisions because of their lack of awareness and I usually just end up waiting for some space to pass them as quickly as possible.
- jablan 9y ago
  You should ask your local government for dedicated biking infrastructure then.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    Dedicated bike lanes have actually been going out of style. Especially those using half of the sidewalk with only symbolic separation from pedestrians are plagued by the inattentiveness of pedestrians, and are usually too narrow to pass other bikes. The pavement is also at higher risk of damage, because these lanes are usually right next to any trees lining the roads, and their roots quickly create breaks, bumps and potholes. What's now preferred is a marked lane in the rightmost car lane, or to just dedicate a complete lane to bikes.
    - Symbiote 9y ago
      A painted strip in the rightmost car lane is the worst bike-lane solution, it's too easy for cars to drift into it. It doesn't feel safe, especially as they're often too narrow. Proper, separated lanes, with kerbstones between both the cars and the pedestrians is best. It's also the most expensive. There are some examples from Copenhagen here: http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2006/10/04/notes-on-bicycling-in-copenhagen/ http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2006/10/04/notes-on-bicycling-in-...
- verelo 9y ago
  Yeah totally agree. The only plus I can get from it is that they're easy to identify as the higher risk riders. I've seen cities where you can just rent a regular bike [often old, beaten up a bit], and those people just blend right in. Having said that, they don't seem to cause anywhere near as much of a problem when there are bike lines, but obviously that is not something available everywhere.
- ihaveajob 9y ago
  That reminds me of my times riding the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, coming back south against the flow of hundreds of rental bikes. It's great that they chose an outdoor activity over riding taxis everywhere, but please stay on the right, and DON'T RECORD THE WHOLE THING ON YOUR PHONE! Wind is often strong and gusty, and there are lots of people...
dkhenry 9y ago
What I have found is there is a tiny minority of people who _hate_ bikers. They tend to pop up and make wild claims about how dangerous bikers are, or how much they dislike how bikers use the streets since streets are for cars, and bikes are for children. What I have found in actually talking to people is most people support and encourage bikes, and would love to bike, but don't feel safe. Bikes make everything about traffic better, and most bikers observe the traffic laws. The best response to people who protest is to continue biking just like you would normally. As bike use grows everyone is safer, and more people feel safe biking. That grows the bike community and helps make a safer place for biking for everyone
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  >most bikers observe the traffic laws Not in Philadelphia, at least. I walk everywhere, and racking my brain for bike encounters I can only recall one of maybe 20 instances in which a bike actually stopped at a red light. I can recall at least a third of those instances where bikes were travelling the wrong way on a one way street, and another third with bikes on the sidewalk. That being said, I still think biking is a net positive. It would be better if the roads were designed with bikes in mind. The problem with bad human behavior is almost never the human, but the system that's designed to disincentivize the good behavior.
  - hahamrfunnyguy 9y ago
    I obey traffic laws when it is safe to do so. There are some dangerous interections around here where the bike lane disappears then starts up again. If you ride with the traffic as you're supposed to, cars behind will try to pass in the middle of the intersection. In those cases, sometimes I will ride up on the sidewalk to bypass the dangerous part of the itnersection. I would feel better if there was a separate light in the bike lane that allowed the bikes to proceed first.
    - specialist 9y ago
      This is the correct answer. One of my safety heuristics is "clear the intersection". Sometimes that means jump the light, or follow a car thru a 4-way, or full stop (foot on ground) to clearly signal I'm waiting my turn.
jdiaz5513 9y ago
Disagree somewhat that Citi bikers are scary. Yeah, they're slow and usually amateurish but they're also easy to spot. If you bump into one it's probably going to be a chuckle-worthy low speed collision. Tail them for a bit, wait patiently for a safe opportunity to pass, and off you go! It's not like they're crashing into things left and right. Cars are typically more of a real threat, IMO. There's two things that actually scare me as a biker: kids and dogs. Both are prone to completely unpredictable and sudden movement right into the bike path. If it's a kid holding a dog? FULL STOP.
CydeWeys 9y ago
I'm a daily cyclist in Manhattan. I just took Citi Bike to work today, though usually I take my own bike. I have both because they're useful for different kinds of trips. Biking in the city is great. We still need lots of infrastructure upgrades to make it safer, but progress is being made on a monthly basis. Just last month a particularly dangerous section of 5th Ave had its bike lane converted from, essentially, a standing/loading lane for vehicles into an actual protected bike lane (with parking separating it from vehicle traffic) that is safe for use. And they even painted it green! For every one complaint others here have about cyclists, I have ten complaints about drivers and pedestrians. Every day on my commute I see dozens of infractions, the most common types being vehicles parking or driving in bike lanes, not yielding safely, pedestrians walking/standing in bike lanes, and pedestrians jaywalking through intersections. People who jaywalk at every light without thinking, and don't even yield to cyclists who have right of way while doing so, will then hypocritically turn around and criticize cyclists for doing things that are much less unsafe. Just this morning I had to navigate through a veritable horde of people standing around in the bike lane at Union Square. I had the green light and they were all waiting to cross across me, except they were six feet too forward and were completely blocking the bike lane. This is a daily occurrence that you see while biking.
Chathamization 9y ago
> i probably drive more than bike, depends on the weather and somewhat the mood i'm in A lot of bikers won't bike when the weather reaches a certain point (too cold, too much rain). This means that even if you build infrastructure for bikes, you're still going to have to build just as much throughput for other modes of transportation as you did before (they have to handle situations where no one is biking).
- pg314 9y ago
  That's not true in places that have good bike infrastructure. E.g. Belgium, the Netherlands or Denmark get plenty of rain. That doesn't stop bicyclists at all. Cold and snow doesn't stop most people either. You just wear a couple of extra layers and go a bit slower if it's slippery.
  - bluGill 9y ago
    When you are exercising hard heat is much worse than cold. A light sweater is enough for - 30, but at just over 25 you run out of things to take off.
    - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
      I'm not sure I want to see you out riding when it's over 25 :)
      - npsimons 9y ago
        Just like you can adapt to exertion in cold, you can adapt to exertion in heat. I regularly do both. It helps if you aren't overweight.
    - pg314 9y ago
      Utilitarian bicycling is not necessarily the same as exercising hard. Most people here in Belgium cycle at about 15-20 km/h. With the added breeze it's often more comfortable to cycle than to walk if it is really hot.
mohn 9y ago
I've done a little walking in Toronto, never biked. The streetcars' recessed tracks in the road look like a nightmare. I'm sure they're easy to cross perpendicularly, but riding longitudinally with them and getting your tire into a crack could end very badly. If you have to go through an intersection where streetcars turn and the tracks snake all over, it would be hard to ensure you're always crossing them perpendicularly. Do you ride on those streets, or somewhere more bike-friendly? (I suppose a fat tire bike might have no problem with those road features, and such bikes are getting more popular with cyclists who commute through the winter).
- Fricken 9y ago
  With streetcar tracks if you hit them at about a 30 degree angle you can roll right over them. On a bike no matter what you got to constantly be scanning the road surface before you to watch for potholes, ruts, gravel and ice patches, puddles and whatever. Usually I do a little bunny hop over street car tracks, and taking some time to learn these sorts of handling skills is very much worth the trouble if you intend to make a habit of commuting by bike.
- Zanta 9y ago
  Streetcar tracks are definitely a challenge in the city. Probably the root cause of ~1/3 of my friends reported crashes (unabashed anecdata). I ride on fatter tires than I would like in order to avoid getting stuck in em. Certain intersections are just a total mess of tracks (Queen/King/Roncesvalles for example), so I just go to pedestrian mode and walk my bike across the crosswalk there. So yeah, it's definitely top of mind if you're riding on those streets, but there are things you can do to mitigate risk down to a level that's acceptable for me. For the record I live in Toronto, drive to work, all other trips are on my bike unless there's snow on the ground.
- LaurentVB 9y ago
  I had two bike crashes in Brussels, Belgium in the last year. Both times because of tracks.
- shazow 9y ago
  (I live and bike in Toronto) The streetcar tracks are definitely something you need to be aware of. If you do your best to cross perpendicularly and avoid rapid swerves when it's raining, it's pretty safe. I spend most of my time on separated bike lanes, which are increasingly becoming A Thing. It's great. The only time I really have to deal with streetcar tracks is if I'm on Queen St and I need to pass a stopped car on the right. It's fairly rare, maybe a few times per year. The rest of the time I'm just passing over them going on Richmond/Adelaide across Spadina which is orthogonal and easy. Overall: The tracks are not great, and they're the #1 thing I warn new bikers about, but they're not a huge issue once you're aware of them and know how to deal with them.
agumonkey 9y ago
Any Dutch old enough to remember when Amsterdam was full of cars and almost zero bikes ? I wonder how the transition went and what effects were ? I was mind wandering the other day: - biking is less stressful than driving [1] - promotes human contact - promotes prolonged activity - has very low cost - almost zero carbon emission (keep breathing people) - allows more capacity / density in urban environments But it's all bedroom speculation so if anyone can give his own experience. [1] considering no dangerous vehicles near, you're less hurried, and less angry at others for no reasons, enjoying the view rather than ruminating the traffic jam
- ash 9y ago
  > Any Dutch old enough to remember when Amsterdam was full of cars and almost zero bikes ? For those interested, some history about Amsterdam cycling and "Stop the child murder" protests: "How the Dutch got their cycling infrastructure": https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/how-the-dutch-got-their-cycling-infrastructure/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/how-the-dutch-... "How Amsterdam became the bicycle capital of the world": https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bicycle-capital-world-transport-cycling-kindermoord https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bic...
matt4077 9y ago
I kinda enjoy the build quality of Berlin's shared bikes. "Heavy" is usually attributed to cheap materials, but for these bikes, it's a result of the requirements of their typical usage. I've heard prices of around $4000 quoted for these bike, meaning most of their components are better than almost all other bikes on the road. They seem indestructible, and, once moving, can roll forever without slowing down. Yes, because of their high weight. But also because they're well-maintained and have low losses in components such as bearings and gears. The weight is obviously far too high, and I wouldn't buy anything with these characteristics for personal use. But it's fun once in a while Used to be even better when they had suspensions that basically allowed you to take the curbs without slowing down.
- ako 9y ago
  I used the nextbike while visiting berlin last weekend. Best way to get around! Agree that the build quality is really good (picture here: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5619/22110033485_a7ab045bdd_b.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5619/22110033485_a7ab045bdd_b...) Eventhough they're rather heavy, the nextbike actually cycles rather well. Was pleasantly surprised.
njarboe 9y ago
Oakland has installed a bunch of "Ford bikes". I thought about using them the other day for a quick one way trip and to check out how they work. $10 a day minimum cost. Is it similar with Citi bikes in NYC? Why not have a one or two dollar an hour option, especially outside of commute hours and weekends.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  The daily passes are aimed at tourists. If you live there then you want the monthly or annual pass. If you were to enroll in Citi Bike and paid for the annual pass up front today, you'd be paying what works out to 37.8 cents per day over the next year. That's worth it even if you only replace one cab ride per month with biking.
simonebrunozzi 9y ago
They should simply offer (assisted) e-bikes, instead of regular ones, while limiting the top speed to something like 15 mph. It would allow "casual" drivers to go fast enough, and behave like a "proper" bike rider.

by verelo 9y ago

rockostrich 9y ago

Your edit is my one problem with the bike sharing programs in cities. As an everyday commuter if I see someone on their own bike it's usually a pretty safe assumption that they're aware of their surroundings. The casual riders make a lot of dangerous decisions because of their lack of awareness and I usually just end up waiting for some space to pass them as quickly as possible.

jablan 9y ago
You should ask your local government for dedicated biking infrastructure then.
- matt4077 9y ago
  Dedicated bike lanes have actually been going out of style. Especially those using half of the sidewalk with only symbolic separation from pedestrians are plagued by the inattentiveness of pedestrians, and are usually too narrow to pass other bikes. The pavement is also at higher risk of damage, because these lanes are usually right next to any trees lining the roads, and their roots quickly create breaks, bumps and potholes. What's now preferred is a marked lane in the rightmost car lane, or to just dedicate a complete lane to bikes.
  - Symbiote 9y ago
    A painted strip in the rightmost car lane is the worst bike-lane solution, it's too easy for cars to drift into it. It doesn't feel safe, especially as they're often too narrow. Proper, separated lanes, with kerbstones between both the cars and the pedestrians is best. It's also the most expensive. There are some examples from Copenhagen here: http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2006/10/04/notes-on-bicycling-in-copenhagen/ http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2006/10/04/notes-on-bicycling-in-...
verelo 9y ago
Yeah totally agree. The only plus I can get from it is that they're easy to identify as the higher risk riders. I've seen cities where you can just rent a regular bike [often old, beaten up a bit], and those people just blend right in. Having said that, they don't seem to cause anywhere near as much of a problem when there are bike lines, but obviously that is not something available everywhere.
ihaveajob 9y ago
That reminds me of my times riding the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, coming back south against the flow of hundreds of rental bikes. It's great that they chose an outdoor activity over riding taxis everywhere, but please stay on the right, and DON'T RECORD THE WHOLE THING ON YOUR PHONE! Wind is often strong and gusty, and there are lots of people...

dkhenry 9y ago

What I have found is there is a tiny minority of people who _hate_ bikers. They tend to pop up and make wild claims about how dangerous bikers are, or how much they dislike how bikers use the streets since streets are for cars, and bikes are for children. What I have found in actually talking to people is most people support and encourage bikes, and would love to bike, but don't feel safe. Bikes make everything about traffic better, and most bikers observe the traffic laws. The best response to people who protest is to continue biking just like you would normally. As bike use grows everyone is safer, and more people feel safe biking. That grows the bike community and helps make a safer place for biking for everyone

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
>most bikers observe the traffic laws Not in Philadelphia, at least. I walk everywhere, and racking my brain for bike encounters I can only recall one of maybe 20 instances in which a bike actually stopped at a red light. I can recall at least a third of those instances where bikes were travelling the wrong way on a one way street, and another third with bikes on the sidewalk. That being said, I still think biking is a net positive. It would be better if the roads were designed with bikes in mind. The problem with bad human behavior is almost never the human, but the system that's designed to disincentivize the good behavior.
- hahamrfunnyguy 9y ago
  I obey traffic laws when it is safe to do so. There are some dangerous interections around here where the bike lane disappears then starts up again. If you ride with the traffic as you're supposed to, cars behind will try to pass in the middle of the intersection. In those cases, sometimes I will ride up on the sidewalk to bypass the dangerous part of the itnersection. I would feel better if there was a separate light in the bike lane that allowed the bikes to proceed first.
  - specialist 9y ago
    This is the correct answer. One of my safety heuristics is "clear the intersection". Sometimes that means jump the light, or follow a car thru a 4-way, or full stop (foot on ground) to clearly signal I'm waiting my turn.

jdiaz5513 9y ago

Disagree somewhat that Citi bikers are scary. Yeah, they're slow and usually amateurish but they're also easy to spot. If you bump into one it's probably going to be a chuckle-worthy low speed collision. Tail them for a bit, wait patiently for a safe opportunity to pass, and off you go! It's not like they're crashing into things left and right. Cars are typically more of a real threat, IMO. There's two things that actually scare me as a biker: kids and dogs. Both are prone to completely unpredictable and sudden movement right into the bike path. If it's a kid holding a dog? FULL STOP.

CydeWeys 9y ago

I'm a daily cyclist in Manhattan. I just took Citi Bike to work today, though usually I take my own bike. I have both because they're useful for different kinds of trips. Biking in the city is great. We still need lots of infrastructure upgrades to make it safer, but progress is being made on a monthly basis. Just last month a particularly dangerous section of 5th Ave had its bike lane converted from, essentially, a standing/loading lane for vehicles into an actual protected bike lane (with parking separating it from vehicle traffic) that is safe for use. And they even painted it green! For every one complaint others here have about cyclists, I have ten complaints about drivers and pedestrians. Every day on my commute I see dozens of infractions, the most common types being vehicles parking or driving in bike lanes, not yielding safely, pedestrians walking/standing in bike lanes, and pedestrians jaywalking through intersections. People who jaywalk at every light without thinking, and don't even yield to cyclists who have right of way while doing so, will then hypocritically turn around and criticize cyclists for doing things that are much less unsafe. Just this morning I had to navigate through a veritable horde of people standing around in the bike lane at Union Square. I had the green light and they were all waiting to cross across me, except they were six feet too forward and were completely blocking the bike lane. This is a daily occurrence that you see while biking.

Chathamization 9y ago

> i probably drive more than bike, depends on the weather and somewhat the mood i'm in A lot of bikers won't bike when the weather reaches a certain point (too cold, too much rain). This means that even if you build infrastructure for bikes, you're still going to have to build just as much throughput for other modes of transportation as you did before (they have to handle situations where no one is biking).

pg314 9y ago
That's not true in places that have good bike infrastructure. E.g. Belgium, the Netherlands or Denmark get plenty of rain. That doesn't stop bicyclists at all. Cold and snow doesn't stop most people either. You just wear a couple of extra layers and go a bit slower if it's slippery.
- bluGill 9y ago
  When you are exercising hard heat is much worse than cold. A light sweater is enough for - 30, but at just over 25 you run out of things to take off.
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    I'm not sure I want to see you out riding when it's over 25 :)
    - npsimons 9y ago
      Just like you can adapt to exertion in cold, you can adapt to exertion in heat. I regularly do both. It helps if you aren't overweight.
  - pg314 9y ago
    Utilitarian bicycling is not necessarily the same as exercising hard. Most people here in Belgium cycle at about 15-20 km/h. With the added breeze it's often more comfortable to cycle than to walk if it is really hot.

mohn 9y ago

I've done a little walking in Toronto, never biked. The streetcars' recessed tracks in the road look like a nightmare. I'm sure they're easy to cross perpendicularly, but riding longitudinally with them and getting your tire into a crack could end very badly. If you have to go through an intersection where streetcars turn and the tracks snake all over, it would be hard to ensure you're always crossing them perpendicularly. Do you ride on those streets, or somewhere more bike-friendly? (I suppose a fat tire bike might have no problem with those road features, and such bikes are getting more popular with cyclists who commute through the winter).

Fricken 9y ago
With streetcar tracks if you hit them at about a 30 degree angle you can roll right over them. On a bike no matter what you got to constantly be scanning the road surface before you to watch for potholes, ruts, gravel and ice patches, puddles and whatever. Usually I do a little bunny hop over street car tracks, and taking some time to learn these sorts of handling skills is very much worth the trouble if you intend to make a habit of commuting by bike.
Zanta 9y ago
Streetcar tracks are definitely a challenge in the city. Probably the root cause of ~1/3 of my friends reported crashes (unabashed anecdata). I ride on fatter tires than I would like in order to avoid getting stuck in em. Certain intersections are just a total mess of tracks (Queen/King/Roncesvalles for example), so I just go to pedestrian mode and walk my bike across the crosswalk there. So yeah, it's definitely top of mind if you're riding on those streets, but there are things you can do to mitigate risk down to a level that's acceptable for me. For the record I live in Toronto, drive to work, all other trips are on my bike unless there's snow on the ground.
LaurentVB 9y ago
I had two bike crashes in Brussels, Belgium in the last year. Both times because of tracks.
shazow 9y ago
(I live and bike in Toronto) The streetcar tracks are definitely something you need to be aware of. If you do your best to cross perpendicularly and avoid rapid swerves when it's raining, it's pretty safe. I spend most of my time on separated bike lanes, which are increasingly becoming A Thing. It's great. The only time I really have to deal with streetcar tracks is if I'm on Queen St and I need to pass a stopped car on the right. It's fairly rare, maybe a few times per year. The rest of the time I'm just passing over them going on Richmond/Adelaide across Spadina which is orthogonal and easy. Overall: The tracks are not great, and they're the #1 thing I warn new bikers about, but they're not a huge issue once you're aware of them and know how to deal with them.

agumonkey 9y ago

Any Dutch old enough to remember when Amsterdam was full of cars and almost zero bikes ? I wonder how the transition went and what effects were ? I was mind wandering the other day: - biking is less stressful than driving [1] - promotes human contact - promotes prolonged activity - has very low cost - almost zero carbon emission (keep breathing people) - allows more capacity / density in urban environments But it's all bedroom speculation so if anyone can give his own experience. [1] considering no dangerous vehicles near, you're less hurried, and less angry at others for no reasons, enjoying the view rather than ruminating the traffic jam

ash 9y ago
> Any Dutch old enough to remember when Amsterdam was full of cars and almost zero bikes ? For those interested, some history about Amsterdam cycling and "Stop the child murder" protests: "How the Dutch got their cycling infrastructure": https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/how-the-dutch-got-their-cycling-infrastructure/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/how-the-dutch-... "How Amsterdam became the bicycle capital of the world": https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bicycle-capital-world-transport-cycling-kindermoord https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bic...

matt4077 9y ago

I kinda enjoy the build quality of Berlin's shared bikes. "Heavy" is usually attributed to cheap materials, but for these bikes, it's a result of the requirements of their typical usage. I've heard prices of around $4000 quoted for these bike, meaning most of their components are better than almost all other bikes on the road. They seem indestructible, and, once moving, can roll forever without slowing down. Yes, because of their high weight. But also because they're well-maintained and have low losses in components such as bearings and gears. The weight is obviously far too high, and I wouldn't buy anything with these characteristics for personal use. But it's fun once in a while Used to be even better when they had suspensions that basically allowed you to take the curbs without slowing down.

ako 9y ago
I used the nextbike while visiting berlin last weekend. Best way to get around! Agree that the build quality is really good (picture here: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5619/22110033485_a7ab045bdd_b.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5619/22110033485_a7ab045bdd_b...) Eventhough they're rather heavy, the nextbike actually cycles rather well. Was pleasantly surprised.

njarboe 9y ago

Oakland has installed a bunch of "Ford bikes". I thought about using them the other day for a quick one way trip and to check out how they work. $10 a day minimum cost. Is it similar with Citi bikes in NYC? Why not have a one or two dollar an hour option, especially outside of commute hours and weekends.

CydeWeys 9y ago
The daily passes are aimed at tourists. If you live there then you want the monthly or annual pass. If you were to enroll in Citi Bike and paid for the annual pass up front today, you'd be paying what works out to 37.8 cents per day over the next year. That's worth it even if you only replace one cab ride per month with biking.

simonebrunozzi 9y ago

They should simply offer (assisted) e-bikes, instead of regular ones, while limiting the top speed to something like 15 mph. It would allow "casual" drivers to go fast enough, and behave like a "proper" bike rider.