7 ms·

As a pedestrian crossing the straw in NYC, you will typically wait for cars to stop, then walk about 2/3 of the way into the street, then peer into the bike lan

by dr_ 9y ago

As a pedestrian crossing the straw in NYC, you will typically wait for cars to stop, then walk about 2/3 of the way into the street, then peer into the bike lane to make sure no bikes are coming, then complete your crossing. Most of the bikers, from my experience, do not follow rules such as stopping at a Stop sign or for pedestrians or at their own bike designated stop lights. It may be nice to bike in the cities parks or on its outskirts, but it's a dangerous proposition in the city itself. NYC is an urban jungle with a web of cars pedestrians, delivery trucks, garbage trucks and construction zones all over. As a biker, if you are not going to follow the rules, you are going to find yourself in trouble at some point.

nerdponx 9y ago
And if you do follow the rules on a bike you often end up sitting in traffic with the cars anyway.
- jablan 9y ago
  Exactly, because both the rules and, even worse, the infrastructure are made for cars, and only shoehorned for bikes afterwards.
- bpyne 9y ago
  Even following the rules you still save time because you're at the top of the queue with the lead car every time. When I bike into work I never have to wait 3-4 turns of the light to proceed. Yes, I do follow the rules: lights, stop signs, etc. Whether driving my car or riding my bike, I'm sharing a resource and we are all trying to get somewhere. It's only fair.
ChrisBland 9y ago
A million times this! I live in Chicago and am an avid biker (been doored by a cab, right of passage i guess?) I am one of the few who stops at stop signs and slows down or stops at cross walks to watch for pedestrians. I attend my local alderman's meetings to push for more protected bike lanes which we are now getting, but my fellow bikers are making us all look bad wrt following the rules of the road. I can't tell you how many times I've almost gotten hit crossing a cross walk by a biker flying down the street without looking or stopping for pedestrians. We are now at the point where bikes are truly getting to share the road, but we are forgetting that we don't just share with cars, but with pedestrians as well. That fact seems to elude most bikers and they are operating like they have total impunity when riding. I'd love to see cops out ticketing bikers for blowing through cross walks with pedestrians present, I'd love to see big fines for running red lights; lord knows our city needs the revenue.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rockostrich 9y ago
  It's a struggle sometimes as a biker on a daily commute when you get to really know your route. There are a bunch of lights and stop signs on my route that very rarely have pedestrians and cars so I'll take it slow through them (about the same speed as a car not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign), but usually not stop. I'm very thankful that 90% of my commute has bike lanes, but would definitely love for them to be more protected and maybe even get some lights devoted to the bike lane like NYC has down a few of its avenues.
- mohn 9y ago
  As a cyclist yourself, I'm sure you're familiar with intersections where the sensors controlling the lights do not sense bikes. I think the best way forward is for more states to adopt Idaho's policy: cyclists can treat stop signs like yield signs, and treat red lights like stop signs. [1] If I'm riding toward a stop sign at a clearly deserted intersection, I would very much like to roll through at 10~15 MPH without risking a ticket. If I'm stopped at a red light and there are no cars making use of the green, I'd rather not dismount, walk over to press a pedestrian crossing button, walk back into the road, and wait. Or stay in the road, wait, and hope that I'll get a green light from a timer instead of a sensor. It's possible to implement these changes and still be safe on a bike (it has worked for nearly 30 years in Idaho). I think we agree that flagrant violations, especially those that put pedestrians at risk, deserve fines. [1] https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T49CH7/SECT49-720/ https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T...
  - maccard 9y ago
    > If I'm riding toward a stop sign at a clearly deserted intersection, I would very much like to roll through at 10~15 MPH without risking a ticket Surely that should apply for cars then int his case. If the intersection is clearly deserted, cars should be able to clear the junction too.
dilatedmind 9y ago
It's a similar situation in Philly, every day I watch bikers run red lights and stop signs or speeding in a 25. I've yet to see a cop pull over someone on a bike
- francisofascii 9y ago
  It doesn't make sense to penalize bikes the same way as cars. A car is deadly, a bike isn't. It would be like assigning the same penalty to throwing a punch and a gun shot.
  - kazinator 9y ago
    You can definitely kill someone with a bicycle. And a punch. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/gay-basher-gets-6-years-for-sucker-punch-1.893544 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/gay-basher-ge... http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/10/stanley-park-pedestrian-dies-injuries-hit-cyclist/ http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/10/stanley-park-pedestrian-d... This is just recent local news from my neck of the woods, off the top of my head.
    - antisthenes 9y ago
      Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it has anywhere the same likelihood of happening. Not even sure what argument you're trying to make. This is why concealed guns are banned in most states and fists aren't.
      - jff 9y ago
        > Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it has anywhere the same likelihood of happening. Not even sure what argument you're trying to make. Ok, go stand in the street and I'll hit you with a bicycle. I can come to the emergency room later and you can tell me how it didn't hurt that much. > This is why concealed guns are banned in most states False, by the way. They just require a license... like a car.
      - kazinator 9y ago
rockostrich 9y ago
The only reason I look both ways on a one-way street in NYC is because I've almost been hit by cyclists going the wrong way on a few occasions (and then been yelled at by that cyclist for not looking). As an everyday commuter in Boston, I'm definitely guilty of not stopping at stop signs that I bike through everyday and not stopping when there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk (usually trying to get as far away as possible from them), but whenever I have to go down the wrong way of a one way street (Charlestown has is a bit confusing and it happens whenever I'm there) I go slow and sometimes even dismount.
fishtank 9y ago
I would encourage anybody who thinks cyclocommuters are particularly bad actors to stand on a busy urban street corner and count the percentage of drivers who are actively engaged with their mobile phone. You can identify them easily because they will be shiftily looking downward at sporadic intervals, rolling stop signs, and failing to notice traffic light changes. In addition to the phone-related dangerous behavior, I would encourage people to count the number of unsignaled turns that happen at an urban intersection. As a pedestrian and a bicycle commuter in Chicago, I have to operate under the assumption that cars will jump in any direction at any moment (especially after having once been hit by a truck making an unsignaled right turn). People who ride bikes in the city seem to attract extra scorn from the public for their supposedly higher rates of scofflawism. Cyclists do not have true impunity because they are in constant danger, whereas drivers have de jure and de facto impunity. A drunk driver in Chicago received no jailtime for actually killing a cyclist last year, for example. The rulebreaking of the cyclist is always taken as less acceptable. For motorists, there is no strong social expectation to follow the rules. I hope this will change as bicycle commuting gets more popular.
- njarboe 9y ago
  I wonder how much of the rise of bike culture and disdain of driving in some of the young demographic comes from the problem of smart phone addiction. As highlighted in your first paragraph, many people don't seem to have the discipline to be able to just not look at their phone for 30 minutes while they drive somewhere. Biking could actually be a relief for some of these people as they have a socially good excuse to be out of contact for some part of the day. Sort of like how some people enjoy airplane trips because no one can call them.
  - ihaveajob 9y ago
    Not sure why you're voted down. I personally really enjoy an occasional ride around a few blocks just to clear my mind, get some fresh air and come back relaxed. Working from home, especially with a toddler around, can be taxing in novel ways.
- npsimons 9y ago
sparrc 9y ago
TBF I think it all depends on how much people in the city generally obey rules of the road. I don't think I've ever seen a New Yorker walk more than 2 blocks without jay-walking.
addicted 9y ago
The difference between bike accidents with pedestrians and car accidents with pedestrians is that the victims of car accidents aren’t alive to complain about how cars are so dangerous anymore.
btbuildem 9y ago
You cannot seriously expect the rules of the road to be the same for multi-ton vehicles capable of 50+ mph speeds and human-powered vehicles that weigh 200lbs tops / max out at 20 mph.
- revelation 9y ago
  Even if you do, the bikes are not going to kill you. Someone on a bike breaking the "rules of the road" is pretty much only risking his own safety, someone in a car it's almost always other people that die.
  - detaro 9y ago
    Bikes can do pretty bad damage to pedestrians. Even if it isn't your fault as the car driver being involved in a crash with a biker is a pretty shitty experience. Yes, they are not as bad as cars, but it's a bad excuse.
  - ska 9y ago
    Even if you do, the bikes are not going to kill you. This is not true. It is less likely than with automobiles, but pedestrians are killed by bicycles from time to time. Obviously bicycle-bicycle accidents that happen in traffic are also dangerous.
    - Nimitz14 9y ago
      Yes and people die from drinking too much water too.
      - ska 9y ago
        Irrelevant to the case of killing other people in avoidable accidents. Like automobiles, lots of cyclists (and I am one) believe that they are able to safely perform maneuvers they cannot, in fact, safely perform. It's sensible to ask if there should be different rules for bicycle and automobile traffic. But if we change the rules, it shouldn't be based one what cyclists want or don't want to do, but on analysis of the safety and efficiency for everyone involved, including pedestrians. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and lose momentum.
CydeWeys 9y ago
As a cyclist crossing the street in NYC, it's much the same experience. Pedestrians jaywalk willy-nilly and you frequently end up having to thread your way through an entire jaywalking horde even though you have right of way.
dionidium 9y ago
I'm a cyclist in NYC. Here's the other side of that: I see you. Let me describe a common scenario: I'm biking toward an intersection. I see a pedestrian moving into the street from 30 yards out. They're looking down at their phone. I see them the entire time. I know they don't see me. There's no chance we're going to collide, because I see exactly what they're doing and have been tracking them as I approach the intersection. At the last second, as I pass by them, they become aware of my presence and jump back, surprised. How do you think they tell that story? I'm sure it has something to do with the maniac cyclist who almost hit them.
- throwthisawayt 9y ago
  You should wait till they cross the intersection instead of timing your cross with the pedestrian. You need to yield to the pedestrian as soon as they enter the cross walk - that's the law and what all road traffic is required to follow.
  - dionidium 9y ago
    As others have said, biking infrastructure in NYC (and in basically all U.S. cities) is an afterthought. It's been tacked onto an environment that was totally given over to cars (rather absurdly, given New York's status as the only truly pedestrian city in the U.S.). What you're seeing is the cyclist's attempt to navigate an environment that's directly hostile to their interests. As long as nothing about that changes, this is what it's going to look like, because I'm not going to follow rules that make no sense for my mode of travel. With respect, of course, to the fact that this is an unpopular opinion in some circles, I'm still just not going to do it. And, crucially, I'm comfortable with the social and legal consequences of my position.

by dr_ 9y ago

nerdponx 9y ago

And if you do follow the rules on a bike you often end up sitting in traffic with the cars anyway.

jablan 9y ago
Exactly, because both the rules and, even worse, the infrastructure are made for cars, and only shoehorned for bikes afterwards.
bpyne 9y ago
Even following the rules you still save time because you're at the top of the queue with the lead car every time. When I bike into work I never have to wait 3-4 turns of the light to proceed. Yes, I do follow the rules: lights, stop signs, etc. Whether driving my car or riding my bike, I'm sharing a resource and we are all trying to get somewhere. It's only fair.

ChrisBland 9y ago

A million times this! I live in Chicago and am an avid biker (been doored by a cab, right of passage i guess?) I am one of the few who stops at stop signs and slows down or stops at cross walks to watch for pedestrians. I attend my local alderman's meetings to push for more protected bike lanes which we are now getting, but my fellow bikers are making us all look bad wrt following the rules of the road. I can't tell you how many times I've almost gotten hit crossing a cross walk by a biker flying down the street without looking or stopping for pedestrians. We are now at the point where bikes are truly getting to share the road, but we are forgetting that we don't just share with cars, but with pedestrians as well. That fact seems to elude most bikers and they are operating like they have total impunity when riding. I'd love to see cops out ticketing bikers for blowing through cross walks with pedestrians present, I'd love to see big fines for running red lights; lord knows our city needs the revenue.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rockostrich 9y ago
It's a struggle sometimes as a biker on a daily commute when you get to really know your route. There are a bunch of lights and stop signs on my route that very rarely have pedestrians and cars so I'll take it slow through them (about the same speed as a car not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign), but usually not stop. I'm very thankful that 90% of my commute has bike lanes, but would definitely love for them to be more protected and maybe even get some lights devoted to the bike lane like NYC has down a few of its avenues.
mohn 9y ago
As a cyclist yourself, I'm sure you're familiar with intersections where the sensors controlling the lights do not sense bikes. I think the best way forward is for more states to adopt Idaho's policy: cyclists can treat stop signs like yield signs, and treat red lights like stop signs. [1] If I'm riding toward a stop sign at a clearly deserted intersection, I would very much like to roll through at 10~15 MPH without risking a ticket. If I'm stopped at a red light and there are no cars making use of the green, I'd rather not dismount, walk over to press a pedestrian crossing button, walk back into the road, and wait. Or stay in the road, wait, and hope that I'll get a green light from a timer instead of a sensor. It's possible to implement these changes and still be safe on a bike (it has worked for nearly 30 years in Idaho). I think we agree that flagrant violations, especially those that put pedestrians at risk, deserve fines. [1] https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T49CH7/SECT49-720/ https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T...
- maccard 9y ago
  > If I'm riding toward a stop sign at a clearly deserted intersection, I would very much like to roll through at 10~15 MPH without risking a ticket Surely that should apply for cars then int his case. If the intersection is clearly deserted, cars should be able to clear the junction too.

dilatedmind 9y ago

It's a similar situation in Philly, every day I watch bikers run red lights and stop signs or speeding in a 25. I've yet to see a cop pull over someone on a bike

francisofascii 9y ago
It doesn't make sense to penalize bikes the same way as cars. A car is deadly, a bike isn't. It would be like assigning the same penalty to throwing a punch and a gun shot.
- kazinator 9y ago
  You can definitely kill someone with a bicycle. And a punch. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/gay-basher-gets-6-years-for-sucker-punch-1.893544 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/gay-basher-ge... http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/10/stanley-park-pedestrian-dies-injuries-hit-cyclist/ http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/10/stanley-park-pedestrian-d... This is just recent local news from my neck of the woods, off the top of my head.
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it has anywhere the same likelihood of happening. Not even sure what argument you're trying to make. This is why concealed guns are banned in most states and fists aren't.
    - jff 9y ago
      > Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it has anywhere the same likelihood of happening. Not even sure what argument you're trying to make. Ok, go stand in the street and I'll hit you with a bicycle. I can come to the emergency room later and you can tell me how it didn't hurt that much. > This is why concealed guns are banned in most states False, by the way. They just require a license... like a car.
    - kazinator 9y ago

rockostrich 9y ago

The only reason I look both ways on a one-way street in NYC is because I've almost been hit by cyclists going the wrong way on a few occasions (and then been yelled at by that cyclist for not looking). As an everyday commuter in Boston, I'm definitely guilty of not stopping at stop signs that I bike through everyday and not stopping when there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk (usually trying to get as far away as possible from them), but whenever I have to go down the wrong way of a one way street (Charlestown has is a bit confusing and it happens whenever I'm there) I go slow and sometimes even dismount.

fishtank 9y ago

I would encourage anybody who thinks cyclocommuters are particularly bad actors to stand on a busy urban street corner and count the percentage of drivers who are actively engaged with their mobile phone. You can identify them easily because they will be shiftily looking downward at sporadic intervals, rolling stop signs, and failing to notice traffic light changes. In addition to the phone-related dangerous behavior, I would encourage people to count the number of unsignaled turns that happen at an urban intersection. As a pedestrian and a bicycle commuter in Chicago, I have to operate under the assumption that cars will jump in any direction at any moment (especially after having once been hit by a truck making an unsignaled right turn). People who ride bikes in the city seem to attract extra scorn from the public for their supposedly higher rates of scofflawism. Cyclists do not have true impunity because they are in constant danger, whereas drivers have de jure and de facto impunity. A drunk driver in Chicago received no jailtime for actually killing a cyclist last year, for example. The rulebreaking of the cyclist is always taken as less acceptable. For motorists, there is no strong social expectation to follow the rules. I hope this will change as bicycle commuting gets more popular.

njarboe 9y ago
I wonder how much of the rise of bike culture and disdain of driving in some of the young demographic comes from the problem of smart phone addiction. As highlighted in your first paragraph, many people don't seem to have the discipline to be able to just not look at their phone for 30 minutes while they drive somewhere. Biking could actually be a relief for some of these people as they have a socially good excuse to be out of contact for some part of the day. Sort of like how some people enjoy airplane trips because no one can call them.
- ihaveajob 9y ago
  Not sure why you're voted down. I personally really enjoy an occasional ride around a few blocks just to clear my mind, get some fresh air and come back relaxed. Working from home, especially with a toddler around, can be taxing in novel ways.
npsimons 9y ago

sparrc 9y ago

TBF I think it all depends on how much people in the city generally obey rules of the road. I don't think I've ever seen a New Yorker walk more than 2 blocks without jay-walking.

addicted 9y ago

The difference between bike accidents with pedestrians and car accidents with pedestrians is that the victims of car accidents aren’t alive to complain about how cars are so dangerous anymore.

btbuildem 9y ago

You cannot seriously expect the rules of the road to be the same for multi-ton vehicles capable of 50+ mph speeds and human-powered vehicles that weigh 200lbs tops / max out at 20 mph.

revelation 9y ago
Even if you do, the bikes are not going to kill you. Someone on a bike breaking the "rules of the road" is pretty much only risking his own safety, someone in a car it's almost always other people that die.
- detaro 9y ago
  Bikes can do pretty bad damage to pedestrians. Even if it isn't your fault as the car driver being involved in a crash with a biker is a pretty shitty experience. Yes, they are not as bad as cars, but it's a bad excuse.
- ska 9y ago
  Even if you do, the bikes are not going to kill you. This is not true. It is less likely than with automobiles, but pedestrians are killed by bicycles from time to time. Obviously bicycle-bicycle accidents that happen in traffic are also dangerous.
  - Nimitz14 9y ago
    Yes and people die from drinking too much water too.
    - ska 9y ago
      Irrelevant to the case of killing other people in avoidable accidents. Like automobiles, lots of cyclists (and I am one) believe that they are able to safely perform maneuvers they cannot, in fact, safely perform. It's sensible to ask if there should be different rules for bicycle and automobile traffic. But if we change the rules, it shouldn't be based one what cyclists want or don't want to do, but on analysis of the safety and efficiency for everyone involved, including pedestrians. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and lose momentum.

CydeWeys 9y ago

As a cyclist crossing the street in NYC, it's much the same experience. Pedestrians jaywalk willy-nilly and you frequently end up having to thread your way through an entire jaywalking horde even though you have right of way.

dionidium 9y ago

I'm a cyclist in NYC. Here's the other side of that: I see you. Let me describe a common scenario: I'm biking toward an intersection. I see a pedestrian moving into the street from 30 yards out. They're looking down at their phone. I see them the entire time. I know they don't see me. There's no chance we're going to collide, because I see exactly what they're doing and have been tracking them as I approach the intersection. At the last second, as I pass by them, they become aware of my presence and jump back, surprised. How do you think they tell that story? I'm sure it has something to do with the maniac cyclist who almost hit them.

throwthisawayt 9y ago
You should wait till they cross the intersection instead of timing your cross with the pedestrian. You need to yield to the pedestrian as soon as they enter the cross walk - that's the law and what all road traffic is required to follow.
- dionidium 9y ago
  As others have said, biking infrastructure in NYC (and in basically all U.S. cities) is an afterthought. It's been tacked onto an environment that was totally given over to cars (rather absurdly, given New York's status as the only truly pedestrian city in the U.S.). What you're seeing is the cyclist's attempt to navigate an environment that's directly hostile to their interests. As long as nothing about that changes, this is what it's going to look like, because I'm not going to follow rules that make no sense for my mode of travel. With respect, of course, to the fact that this is an unpopular opinion in some circles, I'm still just not going to do it. And, crucially, I'm comfortable with the social and legal consequences of my position.