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Disagree strongly. Apple pays a serious price for their privacy stance, which they would rather not pay. Doing machine learning on-device makes it less effectiv

Disagree strongly. Apple pays a serious price for their privacy stance, which they would rather not pay. Doing machine learning on-device makes it less effective. Apple's directions aren't as good as they could be because Maps randomly segments trips and masks its users identity. Apple's App Store revenues are lower because they limit how apps can identify users. This difference is deeper than business models. Compare Google's Hands Free with Apple Pay for example: the same business model (collecting interchange fees) but Apple's approach preserves user's privacy at the cost of some convenience, while Google's is arguably more convenient but informs both Google and the merchant as soon as you enter into the store.

ariwilson 9y ago
Apple's just worse than Google at building these kind of heavily data driven web applications, which they've chosen to paper over to the public with a strong stance on privacy. It's a smart business move.
dxhdr 9y ago
> Apple's App Store revenues are lower because they limit how apps can identify users. I think this is less about privacy and more about control. Only Apple apps are allowed to track Apple users.
- lostlogin 9y ago
  But Apple chooses to implement things in ways that make it way harder for them to do this. Eg Touch ID and facial recognition on the device only, not in the cloud.
  - dpark 9y ago
    That's because of the horrible press they'd get if you couldn't unlock your phone without cell service, or if it took ten seconds when the network was spotty.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    Fingerprints and data for face unlock aren't stored in the cloud on Android either. Wouldn't make any sense anyway since I surely want to unlock my phone without Internet access.
    - lostlogin 9y ago
      Yes, but having a different device recognise you or having the algorithm get better faster would be nice.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- vikascoder 9y ago
  We must remind ourselves that Apple is a closed social network based on hardware whereas lets say FB is software. So Apple plan to monetize this walled hardware/software garden for its own needs
  - _jal 9y ago
    What are you talking about? Can Apple phones only call or text other Apple phones? Where is the 'buddy list'/graph/contact database that can't be easily ported to another social network?
bigbugbag 9y ago
When you compare anything to google, it will look as if caring for privacy. Google is the hugest ad network based on gobbling all privacy from everywhere while Apple is an overpriced hardware seller, of course it will do better on privacy than google. But this does not make apple a privacy oriented company.
- schitzapplebits 9y ago
  The fact that you view it as expensive does not make it overpriced. Apple certainly has no trouble selling at their prices.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    no problem selling to a minority of users worldwide. The rest simply enjoy PCs and other options and ignore Apple.
    - schitzapplebits 9y ago
      So what? Are you claiming that all luxury products are overpriced because most people can't afford them?
    - pls2halp 9y ago
      The thing is. Both the Suface Pro and Pixel(shining examples of companies not quite being Apple) have sold at exactly the same price as their Apple counterparts for the past few years.
      - gunsandnachos 9y ago
        And neither product (I used both) compares to a Mac. There is an elegant simplicity in using a Mac that isn't there when using a PC or other. Having been a *nix admin for a hair under 20 years, I prefer only Free & OpenBSD to macOS.
- briandear 9y ago
  Overpriced? Not if they are selling products at te price offered. If they were OVER priced, they would sell zero. If a good is above the price people are willing to pay, they will sell zero. Clearly, that is not the case. An economic nitpick to be sure but factual. They are correctly priced given their sales and profitability numbers.
greggman 9y ago
Apple Genius just asked me for my username and password to my MacBook so he could type it into some service form for repairs. I don't think asking for that info is really compatible with "we care about privacy"
- danpalmer 9y ago
  There are a lot of things that employees in the retail stores do that isn't very "Apple". I suspect that's partially from not having as strong culture fit selection in hiring, partially from lack of understanding (when it comes to security, it's a nuanced subject) and partially from the realities of being productive in a retail environment.
  - greggman 9y ago
    the form was an official Apple form for repairs. they are going to replace my keyboard and screen. they said they needed the password to test. I asked why not just boot from a USB drive and they said they could not do that. I didn't ask why they couldnt just swap a drive for testing. they didn't offer this option I had to suggest it but basically I'll have to reformat the drive before taking it in for service.
    - stephenr 9y ago
      Create a separate account for them, and make sure you have FileVault turned on so your home folder is encrypted. I've managed to get this concept across to authorised repairers who don't speak english (and I don't speak Thai).
      - Angostura 9y ago
        Exactly. Or just enable the guest account. That's what I always do.
        stephenr 9y ago
        I assume they might want admin permissions honestly. Having said that, prior to my recent visit (failing mbp fan) my trips had always been for failing/failed discrete graphics (about 5 trips on 2 different generations of 17" mbp) so a reinstall is inevitable because making macOS work properly after a mainboard replacemnt is more work than reinstalling from scratch
jhasse 9y ago
> Doing machine learning on-device makes it less effective. Doing it on-device has other advantages besides privacy (e.g. it works without an Internet connection). > Apple's directions aren't as good as they could be because Maps randomly segments trips and masks its users identity. Could you explain that? I didn't really understand what you mean by segmenting the trips and why that should masks the user identity. > Apple's App Store revenues are lower because they limit how apps can identify users. You're comparing them to Google here. One could ask why apps can identify their users at all?
- ballenf 9y ago
  Two options for data queries being passed around and saved: A trip from your house to the sex doll shop vs. A trip from your house to the busy thoroughfare a mile away + trip from busy thoroughfare to the next town over + trip from next town to sex doll shop
  - stephenr 9y ago
    Not to mention map lookups are done via a periodically regenerated random identifier - not linked to an actual account or device id.
doctorsher 9y ago
There are further examples that Apple takes privacy seriously: 1) end-to-end encryption of all iMessages 2) encrypted iCloud content 3) making password management accessible to a lot of people who would not pursue it otherwise (with Keychain) 4) attempting MAC address randomization to prevent WiFi tracking, though from this paper [1] it appears to be broken. Having worked there for a time, in my opinion privacy is deeply ingrained in the company culture. Much easier solutions are avoided if they sacrifice the customer's privacy. Further, it seems many of the decisions are made to minimize the amount of information required at each step to the absolute essentials. These concerns permeate internal technical discussions -- it is not just marketing materials. They also have pretty extensive privacy materials on their website [2, 3]. While that may not be useful to the HN crowd, hopefully it makes privacy more accessible to some segment of their customers who actually read it. References: [1] PDF warning: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874.pdf [2] https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ [3] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

ariwilson 9y ago

Apple's just worse than Google at building these kind of heavily data driven web applications, which they've chosen to paper over to the public with a strong stance on privacy. It's a smart business move.

dxhdr 9y ago

> Apple's App Store revenues are lower because they limit how apps can identify users. I think this is less about privacy and more about control. Only Apple apps are allowed to track Apple users.

lostlogin 9y ago
But Apple chooses to implement things in ways that make it way harder for them to do this. Eg Touch ID and facial recognition on the device only, not in the cloud.
- dpark 9y ago
  That's because of the horrible press they'd get if you couldn't unlock your phone without cell service, or if it took ten seconds when the network was spotty.
- jhasse 9y ago
  Fingerprints and data for face unlock aren't stored in the cloud on Android either. Wouldn't make any sense anyway since I surely want to unlock my phone without Internet access.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    Yes, but having a different device recognise you or having the algorithm get better faster would be nice.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vikascoder 9y ago
We must remind ourselves that Apple is a closed social network based on hardware whereas lets say FB is software. So Apple plan to monetize this walled hardware/software garden for its own needs
- _jal 9y ago
  What are you talking about? Can Apple phones only call or text other Apple phones? Where is the 'buddy list'/graph/contact database that can't be easily ported to another social network?

bigbugbag 9y ago

When you compare anything to google, it will look as if caring for privacy. Google is the hugest ad network based on gobbling all privacy from everywhere while Apple is an overpriced hardware seller, of course it will do better on privacy than google. But this does not make apple a privacy oriented company.

schitzapplebits 9y ago
The fact that you view it as expensive does not make it overpriced. Apple certainly has no trouble selling at their prices.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  no problem selling to a minority of users worldwide. The rest simply enjoy PCs and other options and ignore Apple.
  - schitzapplebits 9y ago
    So what? Are you claiming that all luxury products are overpriced because most people can't afford them?
  - pls2halp 9y ago
    The thing is. Both the Suface Pro and Pixel(shining examples of companies not quite being Apple) have sold at exactly the same price as their Apple counterparts for the past few years.
    - gunsandnachos 9y ago
      And neither product (I used both) compares to a Mac. There is an elegant simplicity in using a Mac that isn't there when using a PC or other. Having been a *nix admin for a hair under 20 years, I prefer only Free & OpenBSD to macOS.
briandear 9y ago
Overpriced? Not if they are selling products at te price offered. If they were OVER priced, they would sell zero. If a good is above the price people are willing to pay, they will sell zero. Clearly, that is not the case. An economic nitpick to be sure but factual. They are correctly priced given their sales and profitability numbers.

greggman 9y ago

Apple Genius just asked me for my username and password to my MacBook so he could type it into some service form for repairs. I don't think asking for that info is really compatible with "we care about privacy"

danpalmer 9y ago
There are a lot of things that employees in the retail stores do that isn't very "Apple". I suspect that's partially from not having as strong culture fit selection in hiring, partially from lack of understanding (when it comes to security, it's a nuanced subject) and partially from the realities of being productive in a retail environment.
- greggman 9y ago
  the form was an official Apple form for repairs. they are going to replace my keyboard and screen. they said they needed the password to test. I asked why not just boot from a USB drive and they said they could not do that. I didn't ask why they couldnt just swap a drive for testing. they didn't offer this option I had to suggest it but basically I'll have to reformat the drive before taking it in for service.
  - stephenr 9y ago
    Create a separate account for them, and make sure you have FileVault turned on so your home folder is encrypted. I've managed to get this concept across to authorised repairers who don't speak english (and I don't speak Thai).
    - Angostura 9y ago
      Exactly. Or just enable the guest account. That's what I always do.
      - stephenr 9y ago
        I assume they might want admin permissions honestly. Having said that, prior to my recent visit (failing mbp fan) my trips had always been for failing/failed discrete graphics (about 5 trips on 2 different generations of 17" mbp) so a reinstall is inevitable because making macOS work properly after a mainboard replacemnt is more work than reinstalling from scratch

jhasse 9y ago

> Doing machine learning on-device makes it less effective. Doing it on-device has other advantages besides privacy (e.g. it works without an Internet connection). > Apple's directions aren't as good as they could be because Maps randomly segments trips and masks its users identity. Could you explain that? I didn't really understand what you mean by segmenting the trips and why that should masks the user identity. > Apple's App Store revenues are lower because they limit how apps can identify users. You're comparing them to Google here. One could ask why apps can identify their users at all?

ballenf 9y ago
Two options for data queries being passed around and saved: A trip from your house to the sex doll shop vs. A trip from your house to the busy thoroughfare a mile away + trip from busy thoroughfare to the next town over + trip from next town to sex doll shop
- stephenr 9y ago
  Not to mention map lookups are done via a periodically regenerated random identifier - not linked to an actual account or device id.

doctorsher 9y ago

There are further examples that Apple takes privacy seriously: 1) end-to-end encryption of all iMessages 2) encrypted iCloud content 3) making password management accessible to a lot of people who would not pursue it otherwise (with Keychain) 4) attempting MAC address randomization to prevent WiFi tracking, though from this paper [1] it appears to be broken. Having worked there for a time, in my opinion privacy is deeply ingrained in the company culture. Much easier solutions are avoided if they sacrifice the customer's privacy. Further, it seems many of the decisions are made to minimize the amount of information required at each step to the absolute essentials. These concerns permeate internal technical discussions -- it is not just marketing materials. They also have pretty extensive privacy materials on their website [2, 3]. While that may not be useful to the HN crowd, hopefully it makes privacy more accessible to some segment of their customers who actually read it. References: [1] PDF warning: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874.pdf [2] https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ [3] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303