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1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrast

1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure. 2. You seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be happening outside China and that blocking consumer access to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The Chinese government is acting as the word's biggest VC and is also very practised and willing to take on long-term transformation plans at the national level. Shutting down foreign platforms only drives adoption of home-grown ones. In addition, they are explicitly targeting a future position as the world leader in AI. In the West I'd be betting on the MIC over individual privately owned companies to put any kind of dent in that ambition. I think any moment where Apple or Google alone could outspend and outcompete China in tech is gone.

chaostheory 9y ago
1. My question was rhetorical. It was in response to someone saying that apps outside of China are unimportant and small. 2. No single country has a monopoly on innovation. Consequently the sharing of ideas from different locations and cultures is really important for moving forward. You miss out on this benefit when you consciously work to block it. Historically, the last time China was this arrogant about isolation, it didn't turn out too well. Last Update: I've wasted enough time on this and probably should have put this in my original post. If you think of sharing data as a resource, China just made it artificially scarce, made it extremely slow, and made it really costly which makes total business sense in the Information Age /s Hopefully our governments won't follow
- ebola1717 9y ago
  China's not blocking out the sharing of ideas though. Until a few months ago, Andrew Ng worked at Baidu! They are isolating data, but hoarding data is a competitive advantage in a way that isolating knowledge isn't.
  - chaostheory 9y ago
    > China's not blocking out the sharing of ideas though. Until a few months ago, Andrew Ng worked at Baidu! Ok they are bottlenecking data... As I've already mentioned this is an extremely inefficient way to share data. Sharing data using physically present word of mouth is a lot more expensive and slower than sharing it instantly via an open internet connection.
    - processing 9y ago
      Peak Hacker News "Sharing data using physically present word of mouth is a lot more expensive and slower than sharing it instantly via an open internet connection."
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        If stating obvious facts is "peak Hacker News" then that's good, isn't it?
        dwighttk 9y ago
        as long as circumlocution is valued.
        Footkerchief 9y ago
        I've read that circumlocation is cheaper and faster.
    - Sacho 9y ago
      Is there any indication that scientists predominantly use whatsapp, so this would block innovation? When you say "this is an extremely inefficient way to share data", what do you mean? It's not like China doesn't have its own messengers, and it's not like whatsapp is the only way for people to communicate over the Internet..
      - 9y ago
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  Any effective government will rightly 'isolate' itself from this kind of pollution - http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2017/09/facebook_was_built_to_enable_bad_actors_like_russia.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogatio...
narrator 9y ago
As for sharing knowledge goes, China has sci-hub.io and westerners get to pay $35 a paper.
- inciampati 9y ago
  Why can't westerners use sci hub? Civil disobedience is much more tolerated in the west.
uptownfunk 9y ago
This has little to do with China and innovation. The problem is mostly economical. China probably wants Chinese clones, clones that are incredibly valuable and based in China. All the wealth generated therefrom stays in China. That's it, it's likely an economical manipulation. And frankly, from an economical standpoint, well-played. (Hope I don't get downvoted to hell!)
- alexbeloi 9y ago
  Not far from mercantilism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism
- andy_ppp 9y ago
  I don’t understand the lack of reciprocal tariffs introduced by the US or are there some I don’t know of? This is probably the economic equivalent of banning say mobile phones or some other large and important sector.
  - westiseast 9y ago
    I think a lot of people feel the same way and it somewhat feeds into the Trump phenomenon. For years the thinking has been that China is liberalizing, and it will eventually open up and that reciprocal sanctions or tariffs will spark unnecessary protectionism and encourage China to reverse direction. A lot of people now, after 20-30 years of similar behaviour, believe that China was just gaming the system all along and had no plans to liberalize politically or allow fair competition from foreign business. Trump certainly tapped into that (although I think there's some consensus that punitive tariffs still won't be useful).
    - logfromblammo 9y ago
      Punitive import tariffs don't work as punishment. They convert a portion of the consumer benefit from trade into taxes, a portion into domestic producer benefit from trade, and throw the rest away as deadweight loss. The foreign producer-exporter is barely even scratched. It's just an excuse to grab money from domestic consumers using another country as the scapegoat.
imron 9y ago
> Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind Foreigners can set up businesses - see for example, the WFOE [0]. There are restrictions however for certain fields and business activities (infrastructure being one), so while foreigners can't just set up any company, they certainly can set up some companies if they like. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterprise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterpris...
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  Thanks that's very helpful actually as I may well be doing this in future. My experience was from being told by Chinese that it was JV all the way and with O'Reilly having to use 3rd parties but thinking about it publishing would obviously be sensitive...
  - imron 9y ago
    Yes, publishing is strictly regulated, and I'd imagine you'd need a JV for any sort of traditional publishing.
nyxtom 9y ago
This right here. China has twofold. Mass expansion to increase other countries' reliance on the Chinese (whether this is debt, infrastructure or manufacturing), in addition to closing off to foreign companies. Foreign companies can not be completely monitored like internal companies can be.

chaostheory 9y ago

1. My question was rhetorical. It was in response to someone saying that apps outside of China are unimportant and small. 2. No single country has a monopoly on innovation. Consequently the sharing of ideas from different locations and cultures is really important for moving forward. You miss out on this benefit when you consciously work to block it. Historically, the last time China was this arrogant about isolation, it didn't turn out too well. Last Update: I've wasted enough time on this and probably should have put this in my original post. If you think of sharing data as a resource, China just made it artificially scarce, made it extremely slow, and made it really costly which makes total business sense in the Information Age /s Hopefully our governments won't follow

ebola1717 9y ago
China's not blocking out the sharing of ideas though. Until a few months ago, Andrew Ng worked at Baidu! They are isolating data, but hoarding data is a competitive advantage in a way that isolating knowledge isn't.
- chaostheory 9y ago
  > China's not blocking out the sharing of ideas though. Until a few months ago, Andrew Ng worked at Baidu! Ok they are bottlenecking data... As I've already mentioned this is an extremely inefficient way to share data. Sharing data using physically present word of mouth is a lot more expensive and slower than sharing it instantly via an open internet connection.
  - processing 9y ago
    Peak Hacker News "Sharing data using physically present word of mouth is a lot more expensive and slower than sharing it instantly via an open internet connection."
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      If stating obvious facts is "peak Hacker News" then that's good, isn't it?
      - dwighttk 9y ago
        as long as circumlocution is valued.
        Footkerchief 9y ago
        I've read that circumlocation is cheaper and faster.
  - Sacho 9y ago
    Is there any indication that scientists predominantly use whatsapp, so this would block innovation? When you say "this is an extremely inefficient way to share data", what do you mean? It's not like China doesn't have its own messengers, and it's not like whatsapp is the only way for people to communicate over the Internet..
    - 9y ago
dreamfactored 9y ago
Any effective government will rightly 'isolate' itself from this kind of pollution - http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2017/09/facebook_was_built_to_enable_bad_actors_like_russia.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogatio...

narrator 9y ago

As for sharing knowledge goes, China has sci-hub.io and westerners get to pay $35 a paper.

inciampati 9y ago
Why can't westerners use sci hub? Civil disobedience is much more tolerated in the west.

uptownfunk 9y ago

This has little to do with China and innovation. The problem is mostly economical. China probably wants Chinese clones, clones that are incredibly valuable and based in China. All the wealth generated therefrom stays in China. That's it, it's likely an economical manipulation. And frankly, from an economical standpoint, well-played. (Hope I don't get downvoted to hell!)

alexbeloi 9y ago
Not far from mercantilism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism
andy_ppp 9y ago
I don’t understand the lack of reciprocal tariffs introduced by the US or are there some I don’t know of? This is probably the economic equivalent of banning say mobile phones or some other large and important sector.
- westiseast 9y ago
  I think a lot of people feel the same way and it somewhat feeds into the Trump phenomenon. For years the thinking has been that China is liberalizing, and it will eventually open up and that reciprocal sanctions or tariffs will spark unnecessary protectionism and encourage China to reverse direction. A lot of people now, after 20-30 years of similar behaviour, believe that China was just gaming the system all along and had no plans to liberalize politically or allow fair competition from foreign business. Trump certainly tapped into that (although I think there's some consensus that punitive tariffs still won't be useful).
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    Punitive import tariffs don't work as punishment. They convert a portion of the consumer benefit from trade into taxes, a portion into domestic producer benefit from trade, and throw the rest away as deadweight loss. The foreign producer-exporter is barely even scratched. It's just an excuse to grab money from domestic consumers using another country as the scapegoat.

imron 9y ago

> Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind Foreigners can set up businesses - see for example, the WFOE [0]. There are restrictions however for certain fields and business activities (infrastructure being one), so while foreigners can't just set up any company, they certainly can set up some companies if they like. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterprise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterpris...

dreamfactored 9y ago
Thanks that's very helpful actually as I may well be doing this in future. My experience was from being told by Chinese that it was JV all the way and with O'Reilly having to use 3rd parties but thinking about it publishing would obviously be sensitive...
- imron 9y ago
  Yes, publishing is strictly regulated, and I'd imagine you'd need a JV for any sort of traditional publishing.

nyxtom 9y ago

This right here. China has twofold. Mass expansion to increase other countries' reliance on the Chinese (whether this is debt, infrastructure or manufacturing), in addition to closing off to foreign companies. Foreign companies can not be completely monitored like internal companies can be.