4 ms·

The incentives weren't just rent control but also white-flight population decline leading to decreased rent rolls leading to reduced property valuations that we

The incentives weren't just rent control but also white-flight population decline leading to decreased rent rolls leading to reduced property valuations that weren't yet reflected in insurance valuations. And much of that white flight was due to the Federal government funding interstates to the suburbs and subsidizing mortgage loans for whites only that made suburban houses cheaper for white middle-class families to live in than urban apartments. http://www.bostonfairhousing.org/timeline/1934-1968-FHA-Redlining.html http://www.bostonfairhousing.org/timeline/1934-1968-FHA-Redl... The South Bronx was also entirely redlined by the HOLC in the 1930s, rendering it ineligible for mortgage loans for decades: https://dsl.richmond.edu/panorama/redlining/#loc=12/40.8328/-73.9018&opacity=0.8&city=bronx-ny https://dsl.richmond.edu/panorama/redlining/#loc=12/40.8328/...

dmix 9y ago
> And much of that white flight was due to the Federal government funding interstates to the suburbs and subsidizing mortgage loans for whites only that made suburban houses cheaper for white middle-class families to live in than urban apartments. . That study is for "1934–1968". The civil rights act (1969) made that type of discrimination illegal and included provisions to incentivize the reduction of segregation, yet I've read that nearly 50yrs later housing segregation is still today higher (or as high) than before the civil rights act. I'm sure that federal policy played a big role in white flight but I'm curious why it hasn't reversed despite these changes... there must be other forces still at play here, that or we're seeing a multi-generational side-effect of bad policy. But regardless it's interesting to think that so much government policy did the exact opposite of help the poor at federal, state, and city level... from city budgeting of fire stations to mortgage incentives to rent control and zoning laws, etc.
- volkl48 9y ago
  Until white people are comfortable living in a 80% minority neighborhood, self-segregation is potentially inevitable regardless of all other factors. Play with the little simulation at the bottom here: http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segregation/ http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segreg... Notice how low the similarity percentage has to be to get anything that is remotely integrated.
  - dmix 9y ago
    It likely wouldn't be seen as a 'problem' if economic levels were similar. In Toronto the ethnic enclaves are a highly regarded feature of the city and there is very little tension (if at all). Many of our ethnic groups are doing as well and sometimes better than the native white groups. It's a natural phenomenon for cultural groups to stick together. I see nothing wrong with that and all groups benefit from the variety in food and festivals. Although we don't have the super high violence rates that spill over into other neighbourhoods and lower incarceration rates.
    - cat199 9y ago
      It's not just economics - Canada doesn't have slave history. Many of these neighborhoods are predominantly AA and descendants of freed slaves; many residents view these neighborhoods as their territory and however bad the crime might be, at least it is something that is 'theirs' in a country that stole their land, families, etc. Encroachment is often viewed as racial assault and non-natives are often treated with suspicion at the least, or outright hostility. The crime and poverty is a separate issue - but if you'll note, when this is solved, the neighborhoods become gentrified and existing poor residents are rapidly displaced.. for these, it was almost preferable to have the crime since they could still live in 'their home' in a neighborhood they grew up in, etc.
- cat199 9y ago
  > I'm curious why it hasn't reversed despite these changes... Then came the gangs (70s-90s, still today)... Neighborhoods like this are/were/became: a) literal war zones b) in many cases extremely hostile to non 'natives' Pretty much if you lived there, you wanted to survive or get out, and no one in their right mind who had a choice wanted to move in, until the gentrification wave of late 90s to now, which only came after crack wars ended and gangs started to be sucessfully supressed.. As for 'policy' - If you dig beyond the surface corruption, there are plenty of not-so-implausible tinfoil hat theories relating to using drug related crime as a foreign and domestic political tool in most countries..

dmix 9y ago

> And much of that white flight was due to the Federal government funding interstates to the suburbs and subsidizing mortgage loans for whites only that made suburban houses cheaper for white middle-class families to live in than urban apartments. . That study is for "1934–1968". The civil rights act (1969) made that type of discrimination illegal and included provisions to incentivize the reduction of segregation, yet I've read that nearly 50yrs later housing segregation is still today higher (or as high) than before the civil rights act. I'm sure that federal policy played a big role in white flight but I'm curious why it hasn't reversed despite these changes... there must be other forces still at play here, that or we're seeing a multi-generational side-effect of bad policy. But regardless it's interesting to think that so much government policy did the exact opposite of help the poor at federal, state, and city level... from city budgeting of fire stations to mortgage incentives to rent control and zoning laws, etc.

volkl48 9y ago
Until white people are comfortable living in a 80% minority neighborhood, self-segregation is potentially inevitable regardless of all other factors. Play with the little simulation at the bottom here: http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segregation/ http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segreg... Notice how low the similarity percentage has to be to get anything that is remotely integrated.
- dmix 9y ago
  It likely wouldn't be seen as a 'problem' if economic levels were similar. In Toronto the ethnic enclaves are a highly regarded feature of the city and there is very little tension (if at all). Many of our ethnic groups are doing as well and sometimes better than the native white groups. It's a natural phenomenon for cultural groups to stick together. I see nothing wrong with that and all groups benefit from the variety in food and festivals. Although we don't have the super high violence rates that spill over into other neighbourhoods and lower incarceration rates.
  - cat199 9y ago
    It's not just economics - Canada doesn't have slave history. Many of these neighborhoods are predominantly AA and descendants of freed slaves; many residents view these neighborhoods as their territory and however bad the crime might be, at least it is something that is 'theirs' in a country that stole their land, families, etc. Encroachment is often viewed as racial assault and non-natives are often treated with suspicion at the least, or outright hostility. The crime and poverty is a separate issue - but if you'll note, when this is solved, the neighborhoods become gentrified and existing poor residents are rapidly displaced.. for these, it was almost preferable to have the crime since they could still live in 'their home' in a neighborhood they grew up in, etc.
cat199 9y ago
> I'm curious why it hasn't reversed despite these changes... Then came the gangs (70s-90s, still today)... Neighborhoods like this are/were/became: a) literal war zones b) in many cases extremely hostile to non 'natives' Pretty much if you lived there, you wanted to survive or get out, and no one in their right mind who had a choice wanted to move in, until the gentrification wave of late 90s to now, which only came after crack wars ended and gangs started to be sucessfully supressed.. As for 'policy' - If you dig beyond the surface corruption, there are plenty of not-so-implausible tinfoil hat theories relating to using drug related crime as a foreign and domestic political tool in most countries..