4 ms·

>> that's supposed to be orders of magnitude cheaper than what people did in the XX century. I think it's the opposite. In 1970s you would just create plastic

by mamon 9y ago

>> that's supposed to be orders of magnitude cheaper than what people did in the XX century. I think it's the opposite. In 1970s you would just create plastic models of spaceships and film them with normal camera. That's as cheap as creating plastic models can get. Of course end result wasn't that great, but it was enough to get by. Now you can create pretty much anything you can imagine, and generate it as CG so it looks perfect on the screen, but you need expensive equipment and even more expensive people to operate it. The point I'm trying to make is that 40 years ago we did simple effects with simple (and cheap) tools. Now we use advanced effects created with the expensive tools. Increased cost is justified by increased quality.

eesmith 9y ago
"In 1970s you would just create plastic models of spaceships and film them with normal camera" Are you sure? For example, from the ILM history at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Light_%26_Magic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Light_%26_Magic we see: 1975: Resurrected the use of VistaVision; first use of a motion control camera (Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope) Following the link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_control_photography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_control_photography gives us: > The first large-scale application of motion control was in Star Wars (1977), where a digitally controlled camera known as the Dykstraflex performed complex and repeatable motions around stationary spaceship models. This enabled a greater complexity in the spaceship-battle sequences, as separately filmed elements (spaceships, backgrounds, etc.) could be better coordinated with one another with greatly reduced error. That doesn't sound like a normal camera. The text immediately before that quote is: > The 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey pioneered motion control in two respects. The film's model photography was conducted with large mechanical rigs that enabled precise and repeatable camera and model motion. The film's finale was created with mechanically controlled slit-scan photography, which required precise camera motion control during the exposure of single frames. And in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the mothership was made of wood, plastic and metal, and wasn't cheap. Now, to be sure these are high budget movies, but your broad description makes it sound like it was true for all movies in the 1970s. I think a better comparison would be to look at the model-based special effects in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine with the CGI effects in Babylon 5; both produced at about the same time. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine : > DS9 was the first TV show in the Star Trek franchise to use computer-generated imagery (CGI) for exterior space shots. Although a few other television series, like Babylon 5, were using CGI exclusively to avoid the high expense of model photography, the Star Trek franchise had continued to use primarily physical models for exterior space shots because producers felt models provided more realism.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Babylon 5 was unfortunately made at the very point where CG was still pretty bad, and because of that it didn't age well. If only it was shot a few years later... On the other hand, B5 had an absolutely amazing storyline. I wish someone would remaster it, replacing the exterior CG shots with new renders, and release it in full HD. It would beat the crap out of most of the things that are on TV today.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    My point was that by the time of Babylon 5 it was cheaper to use CG than using plastic models and cameras. The quality wasn't quite as good, but within a few years it was both cheaper and better than plastic models. mamon's argument is that with plastic models the "end result wasn't that great, but it was enough to get by". The same argument applies to Bab5. That's why I disagree with mamon's argument.

by mamon 9y ago

eesmith 9y ago

"In 1970s you would just create plastic models of spaceships and film them with normal camera" Are you sure? For example, from the ILM history at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Light_%26_Magic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Light_%26_Magic we see: 1975: Resurrected the use of VistaVision; first use of a motion control camera (Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope) Following the link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_control_photography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_control_photography gives us: > The first large-scale application of motion control was in Star Wars (1977), where a digitally controlled camera known as the Dykstraflex performed complex and repeatable motions around stationary spaceship models. This enabled a greater complexity in the spaceship-battle sequences, as separately filmed elements (spaceships, backgrounds, etc.) could be better coordinated with one another with greatly reduced error. That doesn't sound like a normal camera. The text immediately before that quote is: > The 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey pioneered motion control in two respects. The film's model photography was conducted with large mechanical rigs that enabled precise and repeatable camera and model motion. The film's finale was created with mechanically controlled slit-scan photography, which required precise camera motion control during the exposure of single frames. And in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the mothership was made of wood, plastic and metal, and wasn't cheap. Now, to be sure these are high budget movies, but your broad description makes it sound like it was true for all movies in the 1970s. I think a better comparison would be to look at the model-based special effects in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine with the CGI effects in Babylon 5; both produced at about the same time. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine : > DS9 was the first TV show in the Star Trek franchise to use computer-generated imagery (CGI) for exterior space shots. Although a few other television series, like Babylon 5, were using CGI exclusively to avoid the high expense of model photography, the Star Trek franchise had continued to use primarily physical models for exterior space shots because producers felt models provided more realism.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
Babylon 5 was unfortunately made at the very point where CG was still pretty bad, and because of that it didn't age well. If only it was shot a few years later... On the other hand, B5 had an absolutely amazing storyline. I wish someone would remaster it, replacing the exterior CG shots with new renders, and release it in full HD. It would beat the crap out of most of the things that are on TV today.
- eesmith 9y ago
  My point was that by the time of Babylon 5 it was cheaper to use CG than using plastic models and cameras. The quality wasn't quite as good, but within a few years it was both cheaper and better than plastic models. mamon's argument is that with plastic models the "end result wasn't that great, but it was enough to get by". The same argument applies to Bab5. That's why I disagree with mamon's argument.