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I think this reality has to be frankly talked about. If liberal tax policies are so destructive to business and innovation, why are the most successful countie

I think this reality has to be frankly talked about. If liberal tax policies are so destructive to business and innovation, why are the most successful counties often times (as shown in this map) run by more liberal / progressive / dare I say socialistic governments? People often criticize this line of inquiry and call it divisive or inappropriate or callous, but I cannot see how it is unrelated nonetheless. Tax breaks, gender discriminative bathroom laws, climate protection deregulation, and "appeals to traditional values" do not seem to be improving the lives of these people very much.

zipfle 9y ago
I think the policies you cite as bad ideas do in fact enjoy broad support in the areas that enact them. "Hearts and minds" campaigns led by outsiders are notoriously difficult and prone to failure. Can you suggest a way to start the conversation about these policies in a way that you think is likely to succeed?
- pm90 9y ago
  This is an extremely good question and very difficult to answer, to say the least. There has been quite the disinformation program going on in many conservative states; actually not simply disinformation, but demonization, so that its difficult to even get many people to listen to liberals. But I think Al Gore probably has the best solution to this, which he talks about in his new documentary: if you focus on real economic benefits of certain "liberal" ideas, then you seem to have a chance. e.g. if wind energy is shown to be cheaper than natural gas, people will adopt it. Democrats (and fact-believing republicans) really need to include more economics in their messages. Like how expanding Medicare actually helps small businesses and rural communities. Like how higher taxes on the rich help fund education and infrastructure projects that lead to greater prosperity. I understand it is a somewhat skeevey way to do it, because if you're a democrat, you probably also believe in other non-economic democratic values (e.g. diversity, womens' reproductive rights etc.) and to win the support of people who don't believe in these things might seem uncouth.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
thephyber 9y ago
I personally think that the issue is orthogonal, but correlated. Liberal policies in the US are highly correlated with high population density. Even in red states, the cities are mostly outposts of blue politics; even in California, the rural landscapes are dominated by red politics. Communities seem a bit like ponzi schemes, or are at least creatures of inertia. If the community is growing, it exudes promise and hope and more people are interested in moving there. Growth leads to job openings, which leads to more growth. The inverse is dire. When cities go bankrupt or when rural areas lose residents faster than they replenish them, it becomes a downward spiral and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Rural areas don't sustain themselves. Urban or "hip" suburban areas have a much better chance at sustaining. College towns constantly have fresh blood (so long as the college stays out of bankruptcy). I think cities thrive despite the friction created by more socially liberal policies and higher taxation. It's far easier to pivot your business and there are more serendipitous events in densely populated areas with highly educated people. I suspect people would prefer to move to a place with a reasonable social safety net as religious institutions lose the prestige they once had in the US. Perhaps in liberal areas people don't have to fear the social darwinism of the similar situation in a state+county with no funds to help the poor/homeless. The obvious counter-example to "liberal policy places thrive" is Detroit. Detroit had very liberal policies in a state with very strong labor laws. After car manufacturers moved their manufacturing to cheaper labor areas (the US south and other countries), Detroit's population collapsed to less than 50% of it's peak.
- creaghpatr 9y ago
  Cities like Seattle get municipal tax dollars from companies like Amazon whose business disrupts small towns across the US. States receive the sales tax but there's no compensation for the larger disruption effects.
- alphonsegaston 9y ago
  The story of Detroit is far more complicated than what you describe, especially when you choose to gloss over decades of racist violence and humiliation that preceded its collapse. And its economic collapse was also the product of broader right-wing attack on the political/economic power of working class people in the US. Under the guise of “free trade,” they were forced to compete with labor of poorer countries, while the wealthy and their administrators were largely exempt from the same pressures.
hkmurakami 9y ago
The human capital attraction by socially liberal policies can easily outweigh the fiscal policy burden of liberal tax policy.
jcranberry 9y ago
On a macro scale one of the republican arguments is that corporate tax breaks will revitalize corporations in these areas, giving these people jobs and livelihoods.
- pm90 9y ago
  The problem is that this just doesn't work. Look e.g. at Kansas https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/12/opinion/finally-something-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/12/opinion/finally-something...
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  But there's zero evidence to show that this works. Generally the opposite is true; the business pockets the tax break, and does nothing new.
leepowers 9y ago
> and "appeals to traditional values" do not seem to be improving the lives of these people very much. There's a few things going on here: 1) Many in these communities see success and virtue as intertwined. The idea here is that a person with the correct traditional values plus hard work and faith will have a good economic outcome. If God is present, and God commands us to act in certain ways, surely he will reward us for our faith in all aspects of our life (including the economic dimensions). 2) A person living in an economically depressed area won't have money to hold onto, and his life is usually just a few ticks away from financial ruin, losing his home, losing his car, major health episode, etc. It's an ugly and chaotic state. Traditional values provide constancy and a psychological anchor. I may be in a chaotic state but God is in control, even if things go horrifically bad. The trade-off here is that God sets the rules that everyone has to abide by.
specialist 9y ago
The book Democracy for Realists opened my eyes. https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Realists-Elections-Responsive-Government/dp/0691169446 https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Realists-Elections-Responsi... TLDR: People vote based on identity (self image), then adjust their beliefs (positions) as needed.
RickJWagner 9y ago
This thinking runs contrary to the fact that cities like Detriot, Chicago are debt-centers. California (also reliably blue) is far 'in the red' as far as debt goes. No, liberal tax policies are not the answer. The piper must be paid eventually.
- Can_Not 9y ago
  Which piper is getting paid? The wealthy who made their fortunes in society but don't want to contribute back with their fair share of taxes to keep society running?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > California (also reliably blue) is far 'in the red' as far as debt goes. California has significantly below average, for a US state, combined state and local public debt to GDP ratio.

zipfle 9y ago

I think the policies you cite as bad ideas do in fact enjoy broad support in the areas that enact them. "Hearts and minds" campaigns led by outsiders are notoriously difficult and prone to failure. Can you suggest a way to start the conversation about these policies in a way that you think is likely to succeed?

pm90 9y ago
This is an extremely good question and very difficult to answer, to say the least. There has been quite the disinformation program going on in many conservative states; actually not simply disinformation, but demonization, so that its difficult to even get many people to listen to liberals. But I think Al Gore probably has the best solution to this, which he talks about in his new documentary: if you focus on real economic benefits of certain "liberal" ideas, then you seem to have a chance. e.g. if wind energy is shown to be cheaper than natural gas, people will adopt it. Democrats (and fact-believing republicans) really need to include more economics in their messages. Like how expanding Medicare actually helps small businesses and rural communities. Like how higher taxes on the rich help fund education and infrastructure projects that lead to greater prosperity. I understand it is a somewhat skeevey way to do it, because if you're a democrat, you probably also believe in other non-economic democratic values (e.g. diversity, womens' reproductive rights etc.) and to win the support of people who don't believe in these things might seem uncouth.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

thephyber 9y ago

I personally think that the issue is orthogonal, but correlated. Liberal policies in the US are highly correlated with high population density. Even in red states, the cities are mostly outposts of blue politics; even in California, the rural landscapes are dominated by red politics. Communities seem a bit like ponzi schemes, or are at least creatures of inertia. If the community is growing, it exudes promise and hope and more people are interested in moving there. Growth leads to job openings, which leads to more growth. The inverse is dire. When cities go bankrupt or when rural areas lose residents faster than they replenish them, it becomes a downward spiral and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Rural areas don't sustain themselves. Urban or "hip" suburban areas have a much better chance at sustaining. College towns constantly have fresh blood (so long as the college stays out of bankruptcy). I think cities thrive despite the friction created by more socially liberal policies and higher taxation. It's far easier to pivot your business and there are more serendipitous events in densely populated areas with highly educated people. I suspect people would prefer to move to a place with a reasonable social safety net as religious institutions lose the prestige they once had in the US. Perhaps in liberal areas people don't have to fear the social darwinism of the similar situation in a state+county with no funds to help the poor/homeless. The obvious counter-example to "liberal policy places thrive" is Detroit. Detroit had very liberal policies in a state with very strong labor laws. After car manufacturers moved their manufacturing to cheaper labor areas (the US south and other countries), Detroit's population collapsed to less than 50% of it's peak.

creaghpatr 9y ago
Cities like Seattle get municipal tax dollars from companies like Amazon whose business disrupts small towns across the US. States receive the sales tax but there's no compensation for the larger disruption effects.
alphonsegaston 9y ago
The story of Detroit is far more complicated than what you describe, especially when you choose to gloss over decades of racist violence and humiliation that preceded its collapse. And its economic collapse was also the product of broader right-wing attack on the political/economic power of working class people in the US. Under the guise of “free trade,” they were forced to compete with labor of poorer countries, while the wealthy and their administrators were largely exempt from the same pressures.

hkmurakami 9y ago

The human capital attraction by socially liberal policies can easily outweigh the fiscal policy burden of liberal tax policy.

jcranberry 9y ago

On a macro scale one of the republican arguments is that corporate tax breaks will revitalize corporations in these areas, giving these people jobs and livelihoods.

pm90 9y ago
The problem is that this just doesn't work. Look e.g. at Kansas https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/12/opinion/finally-something-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/12/opinion/finally-something...
s73ver_ 9y ago
But there's zero evidence to show that this works. Generally the opposite is true; the business pockets the tax break, and does nothing new.

leepowers 9y ago

> and "appeals to traditional values" do not seem to be improving the lives of these people very much. There's a few things going on here: 1) Many in these communities see success and virtue as intertwined. The idea here is that a person with the correct traditional values plus hard work and faith will have a good economic outcome. If God is present, and God commands us to act in certain ways, surely he will reward us for our faith in all aspects of our life (including the economic dimensions). 2) A person living in an economically depressed area won't have money to hold onto, and his life is usually just a few ticks away from financial ruin, losing his home, losing his car, major health episode, etc. It's an ugly and chaotic state. Traditional values provide constancy and a psychological anchor. I may be in a chaotic state but God is in control, even if things go horrifically bad. The trade-off here is that God sets the rules that everyone has to abide by.

specialist 9y ago

The book Democracy for Realists opened my eyes. https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Realists-Elections-Responsive-Government/dp/0691169446 https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Realists-Elections-Responsi... TLDR: People vote based on identity (self image), then adjust their beliefs (positions) as needed.

RickJWagner 9y ago

This thinking runs contrary to the fact that cities like Detriot, Chicago are debt-centers. California (also reliably blue) is far 'in the red' as far as debt goes. No, liberal tax policies are not the answer. The piper must be paid eventually.

Can_Not 9y ago
Which piper is getting paid? The wealthy who made their fortunes in society but don't want to contribute back with their fair share of taxes to keep society running?
dragonwriter 9y ago
> California (also reliably blue) is far 'in the red' as far as debt goes. California has significantly below average, for a US state, combined state and local public debt to GDP ratio.