4 ms·

That's no longer true. The Patriot Act enables government behavior that's functionally equivalent to this incident in the U.K.

by sp527 9y ago

gknoy 9y ago
As does the fact that we now consider "the border" to include anything within 100 miles of the border.
- nobodyorother 9y ago
  If you count the US's 98 international airports, doesn't that cover the entire country?
- KGIII 9y ago
  You may wish to read the third paragraph on this site: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    So, I read that paragraph, and the section I think you're highlighting is this: > the Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies only at international borders and their functional equivalent (such as international airports) but that line cites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuerte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuer..., which is weird because it says the opposite.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      That was at a permanent checkpoint. That would be a functional equivalent, in the eyes of the court - or so I understand. For example, I live on the border - pretty much. I'm just a short drive to Canada. Border Patrol can't actually stop me and search my car, search my house, or anything like that - unless I'm going through the border. If I'm not going through the border, they need a warrant. There are no checkpoints other than at the border, but those would be functionally equivalent (in the eyes of the court). I believe temporary checkpoints also count as functional equivalents but that's a guess - I'm not sure if that's been tested in court yet. Other than those checkpoints and the border, you retain your rights as you would elsewhere. Or so precedent and SCOTUS say - except I speculate that they include temporary checkpoints along with permanent checkpoints.
      - shkkmo 9y ago
        > Border Patrol can't actually stop me and search my car, search my house, or anything like that - unless I'm going through the border. The ACLU disagrees and says all the CPB needs is probable cause. >8 U.S.C. § 1357(a)(3) addresses CBP officials’authority to stop and conduct searches on vessels, trains, aircraft, or other vehicles anywhere within “a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States.” Without further statutory guidance, regulations alone expansively define this “reasonable distance” as 100 air miles from any external boundary of the U.S., including coastal boundaries, unless an agency official sets a shorter distance.1CBP agentscan also even enter private property without a warrant (excepting dwellings) within 25 miles of any border. In this 100-mile zone, CBP has claimed certain extra-constitutional powers. For instance, Border Patrol claims the authority tooperate immigration checkpoints. Agents, nevertheless, cannot pull anyone over without "reasonable suspicion" of an immigration violation or crime (more than just a "hunch"). Similarly, courts have determined that outside of Ports of Entry Border Patrol cannot search vehicles in the 100-mile zone without a warrant or "probable cause" (a reasonable belief, based on the circumstances, that an immigration violation or crime has occurred). In practice, Border Patrol agents routinely ignore or misunderstand the limits of their legal authority, violating the constitutional rights of innocent people. Although the 100-mile border zone is not literally "Constitution-free," CBP frequently acts like it is. https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-factsheet-customs-and-border-protections-100-mile-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-factsheet-customs-and-border...
- Tyrannosaur 9y ago
  As well as "the border" including any international airports, it is difficult to find a heavily populated area that is not in this zone
- samfriedman 9y ago
  The ACLU has produced a map to this effect: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-border-zone-map https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-b...
ChuckMcM 9y ago
That was not my understanding, can you tell me what part of the currently enacted PATRIOT act enables searching a US citizen without probable cause or a warrant from a court (FISA or otherwise) ?

That's no longer true. The Patriot Act enables government behavior that's functionally equivalent to this incident in the U.K.

by sp527 9y ago

That's no longer true. The Patriot Act enables government behavior that's functionally equivalent to this incident in the U.K.

gknoy 9y ago

As does the fact that we now consider "the border" to include anything within 100 miles of the border.

nobodyorother 9y ago
If you count the US's 98 international airports, doesn't that cover the entire country?
KGIII 9y ago
You may wish to read the third paragraph on this site: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  So, I read that paragraph, and the section I think you're highlighting is this: > the Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies only at international borders and their functional equivalent (such as international airports) but that line cites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuerte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuer..., which is weird because it says the opposite.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    That was at a permanent checkpoint. That would be a functional equivalent, in the eyes of the court - or so I understand. For example, I live on the border - pretty much. I'm just a short drive to Canada. Border Patrol can't actually stop me and search my car, search my house, or anything like that - unless I'm going through the border. If I'm not going through the border, they need a warrant. There are no checkpoints other than at the border, but those would be functionally equivalent (in the eyes of the court). I believe temporary checkpoints also count as functional equivalents but that's a guess - I'm not sure if that's been tested in court yet. Other than those checkpoints and the border, you retain your rights as you would elsewhere. Or so precedent and SCOTUS say - except I speculate that they include temporary checkpoints along with permanent checkpoints.
    - shkkmo 9y ago
      > Border Patrol can't actually stop me and search my car, search my house, or anything like that - unless I'm going through the border. The ACLU disagrees and says all the CPB needs is probable cause. >8 U.S.C. § 1357(a)(3) addresses CBP officials’authority to stop and conduct searches on vessels, trains, aircraft, or other vehicles anywhere within “a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States.” Without further statutory guidance, regulations alone expansively define this “reasonable distance” as 100 air miles from any external boundary of the U.S., including coastal boundaries, unless an agency official sets a shorter distance.1CBP agentscan also even enter private property without a warrant (excepting dwellings) within 25 miles of any border. In this 100-mile zone, CBP has claimed certain extra-constitutional powers. For instance, Border Patrol claims the authority tooperate immigration checkpoints. Agents, nevertheless, cannot pull anyone over without "reasonable suspicion" of an immigration violation or crime (more than just a "hunch"). Similarly, courts have determined that outside of Ports of Entry Border Patrol cannot search vehicles in the 100-mile zone without a warrant or "probable cause" (a reasonable belief, based on the circumstances, that an immigration violation or crime has occurred). In practice, Border Patrol agents routinely ignore or misunderstand the limits of their legal authority, violating the constitutional rights of innocent people. Although the 100-mile border zone is not literally "Constitution-free," CBP frequently acts like it is. https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-factsheet-customs-and-border-protections-100-mile-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-factsheet-customs-and-border...
Tyrannosaur 9y ago
As well as "the border" including any international airports, it is difficult to find a heavily populated area that is not in this zone
samfriedman 9y ago
The ACLU has produced a map to this effect: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-border-zone-map https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-b...

ChuckMcM 9y ago

That was not my understanding, can you tell me what part of the currently enacted PATRIOT act enables searching a US citizen without probable cause or a warrant from a court (FISA or otherwise) ?