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To me, that sounds like a problem caused by patriarchy or other power imbalances: in many societies, men have great power (earning potential), women have little

To me, that sounds like a problem caused by patriarchy or other power imbalances: in many societies, men have great power (earning potential), women have little, and hence are forced to marry (preferably the richest man) to gain power. Of course you can address the symptom (women choosing the wealthier/more powerful men, leaving the men who are less-so without a mate), but the underlying disease remains: womens' choice whom to marry is hampered by lack of societal standing. Better to address the disease (patriarchy). Women are no longer forced to marry "up" (addressing the power issues polygyny belies); men no longer are forced to focus on being earners, so those who would be low-status under patriarchy (due to lack of earning potential) can instead focus on developing other traits (e.g. homemaking) which would make them attractive to female earners.

Nursie 9y ago
I don't think you've quite understood my last comment. It's not really about men being high earners or having some sort indefinable social capital that makes women "marry up" in most examples of polygynous cultures AFAICT, it's literal force. It's not women choosing to marry the man with the most power or wealth, it's cultural and religious forced marriage, on threat of ostracism, familial disgrace or much worse. Yes, it is a problem caused by patriarchy, they tend to be highly patriarchal societies, the ones where men routinely have more than one wife.
- colanderman 9y ago
  > It's not women choosing to marry the man with the most power or wealth, it's cultural and religious forced marriage, on threat of ostracism, familial disgrace or much worse. No, I get that – my point is, there's not much difference between social pressure to marry someone wealthy because you were not raised to be a breadwinner and thus would starve if you didn't marry up, and social pressure to marry someone in high social standing because you'd be ostracized otherwise. Social pressures that prevent women from gaining power and thus being forced to marry to get it, are not that different from social pressures that explicitly force women to marry powerful men. > Yes, it is a problem caused by patriarchy, they tend to be highly patriarchal societies, the ones where men routinely have more than one wife. Which is exactly my thesis: patriarchy is the cause, polygyny is the symptom. Applying a band-aid of normalized monogamous marriages to ensure mates for low-status men (as the GP insinuated) addresses the symptom, and ignores the cause. (You see the same thing with prostitution BTW – prostitution is "bad" because it places desperate women in a position where they are taken advantage of by clients. But banning prostitution doesn't fix anything – you still have women who see no other earning potential than selling sex. The real problem is patriarchy that creates such a large class of women with no independent earning potential in the first place. Fix that, and the problem of prostitution-from-desperation diminishes greatly.)
  - Nursie 9y ago
    >> No, I get that – my point is, there's not much difference between social pressure to marry someone wealthy because you were not raised to be a breadwinner and thus would starve if you didn't marry up, and social pressure to marry someone in high social standing because you'd be ostracized otherwise. Sorry there's a f*ck of a lot of difference between choosing a partner that's a breadwinner, and being put through a forced marriage. >> Social pressures that prevent women from gaining power and thus being forced to marry to get it, are not that different from social pressures that explicitly force women to marry powerful men. They are significantly different in consequence, IMHO, even if the cause is different only in matter of degree. >> Applying a band-aid of normalized monogamous marriages to ensure mates for low-status men (as the GP insinuated) addresses the symptom, and ignores the cause. I don't consider that a band-aid particularly, it seems something a lot of people want out of life, and the question of "status" somewhat orthogonal. I also don't think the parent post advocates any sort of enforcement of this, but just looks at outcomes.
    - colanderman 9y ago
      So you really believe that physical coercion to marry high-status males is caused by (i.e., is an "outcome" of) the practice of polygamy? Forced polygyny does not just happen, someone has to have the power to force it. That someone exactly he who benefits from the practice: high-status men – by definition, the patriarchy. Is being physically coerced to marry someone worse than being economically incentivized to? Of course, I'm not arguing that. Is being formally ostracized for refusing to marry someone of high status worse than being informally ostracized for refusing to marry someone of low status? Yes, but by degrees. Yes, you can replace formal ostracism with informal ostracism by normalizing monogamy, but it's still going to happen so long as a patriarchal power imbalance remains in place. (Doubt that informal ostracism happens? Women who choose not to marry have historically been excluded from mainstream society in western society. Hence the trope of the isolated spinster/widow, and the prevalence of prostitution as a means of earning for women who choose to stay single.)
      - Nursie 9y ago
belorn 9y ago
There is no statistic difference between low earning and high earning women in the behavior of "marry up". There is also no difference between countries that have high income difference and those with smaller income difference. Marrying up is a global cultural pattern, identical to the pattern of men marrying a younger woman.

Nursie 9y ago

I don't think you've quite understood my last comment. It's not really about men being high earners or having some sort indefinable social capital that makes women "marry up" in most examples of polygynous cultures AFAICT, it's literal force. It's not women choosing to marry the man with the most power or wealth, it's cultural and religious forced marriage, on threat of ostracism, familial disgrace or much worse. Yes, it is a problem caused by patriarchy, they tend to be highly patriarchal societies, the ones where men routinely have more than one wife.

colanderman 9y ago
> It's not women choosing to marry the man with the most power or wealth, it's cultural and religious forced marriage, on threat of ostracism, familial disgrace or much worse. No, I get that – my point is, there's not much difference between social pressure to marry someone wealthy because you were not raised to be a breadwinner and thus would starve if you didn't marry up, and social pressure to marry someone in high social standing because you'd be ostracized otherwise. Social pressures that prevent women from gaining power and thus being forced to marry to get it, are not that different from social pressures that explicitly force women to marry powerful men. > Yes, it is a problem caused by patriarchy, they tend to be highly patriarchal societies, the ones where men routinely have more than one wife. Which is exactly my thesis: patriarchy is the cause, polygyny is the symptom. Applying a band-aid of normalized monogamous marriages to ensure mates for low-status men (as the GP insinuated) addresses the symptom, and ignores the cause. (You see the same thing with prostitution BTW – prostitution is "bad" because it places desperate women in a position where they are taken advantage of by clients. But banning prostitution doesn't fix anything – you still have women who see no other earning potential than selling sex. The real problem is patriarchy that creates such a large class of women with no independent earning potential in the first place. Fix that, and the problem of prostitution-from-desperation diminishes greatly.)
- Nursie 9y ago
  >> No, I get that – my point is, there's not much difference between social pressure to marry someone wealthy because you were not raised to be a breadwinner and thus would starve if you didn't marry up, and social pressure to marry someone in high social standing because you'd be ostracized otherwise. Sorry there's a f*ck of a lot of difference between choosing a partner that's a breadwinner, and being put through a forced marriage. >> Social pressures that prevent women from gaining power and thus being forced to marry to get it, are not that different from social pressures that explicitly force women to marry powerful men. They are significantly different in consequence, IMHO, even if the cause is different only in matter of degree. >> Applying a band-aid of normalized monogamous marriages to ensure mates for low-status men (as the GP insinuated) addresses the symptom, and ignores the cause. I don't consider that a band-aid particularly, it seems something a lot of people want out of life, and the question of "status" somewhat orthogonal. I also don't think the parent post advocates any sort of enforcement of this, but just looks at outcomes.
  - colanderman 9y ago
    So you really believe that physical coercion to marry high-status males is caused by (i.e., is an "outcome" of) the practice of polygamy? Forced polygyny does not just happen, someone has to have the power to force it. That someone exactly he who benefits from the practice: high-status men – by definition, the patriarchy. Is being physically coerced to marry someone worse than being economically incentivized to? Of course, I'm not arguing that. Is being formally ostracized for refusing to marry someone of high status worse than being informally ostracized for refusing to marry someone of low status? Yes, but by degrees. Yes, you can replace formal ostracism with informal ostracism by normalizing monogamy, but it's still going to happen so long as a patriarchal power imbalance remains in place. (Doubt that informal ostracism happens? Women who choose not to marry have historically been excluded from mainstream society in western society. Hence the trope of the isolated spinster/widow, and the prevalence of prostitution as a means of earning for women who choose to stay single.)
    - Nursie 9y ago

belorn 9y ago

There is no statistic difference between low earning and high earning women in the behavior of "marry up". There is also no difference between countries that have high income difference and those with smaller income difference. Marrying up is a global cultural pattern, identical to the pattern of men marrying a younger woman.