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So affairs are 'wrong', but who would want to live in a world where there are no affairs? We excessively police and punish our partners, our friends' partners

So affairs are 'wrong', but who would want to live in a world where there are no affairs? We excessively police and punish our partners, our friends' partners and our parents, but often hypocritically, when it comes to ourselves and our friends cheating will generally be forgiven. I am not even advocating abolishing the hypocricy. Without it affairs probably wouldn't be exciting and equally, faithful relationships wouldn't be as meaningful. What is more, having broken up a long term relationship with children (with objectively plenty of cause), and having not had an affair what I can say is that for a woman this can be even worse, as it leaves them without something to be mad and and just feeling unvalued. (It probably goes both ways for both genders, but in my view it is something that is clearly not symmetrical in Male-Female relationships). However what I do think is wrong are ill feelings to the point of death threats and hatred (which I experienced) even if there is infidelity. In this situation can someone really claim to have loved someone in the first place if they value their life outside of the relationship so little. When this is the basis of someones feelings then the relationship/marriage is a kind of tyranny in my opinion.

sambe 9y ago
Quite a lot of people, I'd think? The mature thing to do is leave, or discuss your needs honestly. If the enjoyment comes from the risk then you're getting your kicks at someone else's expense. That's really selfish.
- lsd5you 9y ago
  If so, it is a form of moral extremism that I think would result in everyone being less happy (and with general confusion as to why people are unhappy). Possibility, even unacted on, is an important thing.
Nursie 9y ago
>>what I can say is that for a woman this can be even worse, as it leaves them without something to be mad and and just feeling unvalued. This appears to be sexist tripe.
- lsd5you 9y ago
  I'm sorry, it is conditionally worded and is grounded in my personal experiences. You can have your view, but don't sling ignorant insults. Perhaps try to show me why it is wrong? Or perhaps open your mind as to why someone might think it is the case.
  - Nursie 9y ago
    You've just said that marriage breakup for women is worse than for men, because it leaves them without something to be mad at! And somehow you think that's not sexist....
    - lsd5you 9y ago
      It 'can be worse' if there is no cheating. My position to the extent that it is sexist is that it may even be worse for them on average. You just seem to be deliberately misconstruing my position because you would rather shut it down then argue the nuance and accept you don't know everything about the world. Am I sexist? By your definition probably yes. Men and women, especially when it comes to relationships are rather different (on average). Now if I believe that, then what is wrong with that? It all seems pretty plausible to me.
      - Nursie 9y ago
        I'm not deliberately misconstruing your comment, but on re-reading I can see what you're trying to say a little better - your wording leaves something to be desired, and I still don't think it's necessary to bring gender into it at all. You seem to think that a massive betrayal of trust would be better for someone you're breaking up with, than telling them that you're leaving them for other reasons, because it gives them something to hate afterwards. I'd say that's arse-backwards, personally.
        lsd5you 9y ago
        Yes, that is what I am saying (conditionally). I realise this is a contrarian thing to say. Again the level of trust is going to vary between relationships, and what has happened in the relationship and the character of the individuals involved. Marriage obviously has explicit promises, but there is a general social contract. This whole don't mention gender thing is very tedious and borderline thought police. It is simply not that offensive what I am writing. If it doesn't apply to you and yours then good for you. In any case it was grounding it in personal experience.
LordKano 9y ago
Death threats are never ok but hatred is completely understandable. To feel hatred for someone who betrayed you, who lied to you, who acted like you were a crazy person for feeling the disconnect between the two of you, who accepted your fidelity while not returning it and made you doubt your worth as a human being is perfectly understandable.
- lsd5you 9y ago
  You see I dispute this. If you just break up with someone and tell them it's just no good (or even all those things you did are too much to take) then that can leave them feeling even worse. Again we are all talking in massive generalities and no two situations are exactly the same - which is why we shouldn't have a totalitarian view on this issue.
jwalgenbach 9y ago
Yeah, that's crap. Let's translate that philosophy to other "wrong" activities, shall we? "Spending money is more exciting when it's stolen. Saving is much more meaningful if there is the possibility that someone can steal it." "Life is more meaningful when someone is actively trying to kill you. Murder is much less exciting because it's wrong." You see the problem? The notion that actively doing something awful to someone else makes what they have meaningful, and what you are doing exciting is just selfishness and justification. You don't like monogamy? No one is forcing you into it. Unhappy with your [life | partner | marriage | whatever] and you think the answer is outside your agreed upon monogamous relationship? End it. Divorce is legal. Breaking up without marriage is even easier. There is no tyranny is a relationship you enter into of your own volition. You have children? Don't be an asshole and hurt their other parent because you have issues. End the relationship before starting another one. Be the person your children can respect. The other person in the relationship? Don't be that. Because you are being a party to deceit. No, you aren't the one cheating, and that justification only goes so far, but it still shows a base selfishness that informs your character. You ought to expect to be hated, because that weakness and selfishness that makes up your character is the instrument that harms someone else. In the pain that is being caused, you are the weapon that is being used by the person cheating to hurt their partner.
- lsd5you 9y ago
  Yes, but I am speaking as someone who did just break up with someone. Amazing how noone can actually read that part and just jumps to long ranty insults. Confirmation bias is going to be especially common if you delete words when as you read. (I assume you are addressing me when you say 'you' this and 'you' that). The reality of my case is (well it's a complicated story) that it may well have gone better for them psychologically if there was a clear betrayal on my part. Maybe mine is an extreme case, and in anycase knowing what I know wouldn't have made me cheat - I would rather be in the right - but then again it's easy to say that ... Everyone seems to be taking such an absolute position. Which is ridiculous really since it really is culturally relative e.g. in france they are much more permissive of affairs - with certain thrown in social conditions about being discreet - and again it is not to say they are saying it is right - neither am I, just that it is not such a huge bad to deserve all the vitriol - like I'm getting for even discussing the matter. What is clear is I would never make promises to people with such puritanical attitudes like yours. Clearly it would be a one sided contract since I would be much more forgiving and less entitled and on top of that given the way of hypocricy quite possibly less likely to cheat. Again, if I may argue by analogy, like the anti-gay politicians who are gay, I wonder wether the people who are so anti-affair are infact liable to do so or have done so themselves. Of course there can be tyranny in a voluntary relationship, because you cannot predict the future and you can be bound (by e.g. caring more about the children, or social pressure) to suffer. Some people are fools when it comes to relationships. They may know there partner cheated in the past, they may know they have generally sexually permissive attitude and are unreliable with their promises. Yet the outrage is still there nonetheless. You cannot make something into something it is not. I may as well get outraged if my partner doesn't become a millionairre or doesn't look like a supermodel after a certain age. And just because you can make analogies, doesn't make it right. Somethings are better (for some people) with some danger of a bad outcome. e.g. Extreme sports. Yes, I just don't think you can equate murder or theft to having an affair. Both are actions against a stranger. Now if one partner misspends a large sum of shared money then that is an ambiguous situation which is worth comparing.

sambe 9y ago

Quite a lot of people, I'd think? The mature thing to do is leave, or discuss your needs honestly. If the enjoyment comes from the risk then you're getting your kicks at someone else's expense. That's really selfish.

lsd5you 9y ago
If so, it is a form of moral extremism that I think would result in everyone being less happy (and with general confusion as to why people are unhappy). Possibility, even unacted on, is an important thing.

Nursie 9y ago

>>what I can say is that for a woman this can be even worse, as it leaves them without something to be mad and and just feeling unvalued. This appears to be sexist tripe.

lsd5you 9y ago
I'm sorry, it is conditionally worded and is grounded in my personal experiences. You can have your view, but don't sling ignorant insults. Perhaps try to show me why it is wrong? Or perhaps open your mind as to why someone might think it is the case.
- Nursie 9y ago
  You've just said that marriage breakup for women is worse than for men, because it leaves them without something to be mad at! And somehow you think that's not sexist....
  - lsd5you 9y ago
    It 'can be worse' if there is no cheating. My position to the extent that it is sexist is that it may even be worse for them on average. You just seem to be deliberately misconstruing my position because you would rather shut it down then argue the nuance and accept you don't know everything about the world. Am I sexist? By your definition probably yes. Men and women, especially when it comes to relationships are rather different (on average). Now if I believe that, then what is wrong with that? It all seems pretty plausible to me.
    - Nursie 9y ago
      I'm not deliberately misconstruing your comment, but on re-reading I can see what you're trying to say a little better - your wording leaves something to be desired, and I still don't think it's necessary to bring gender into it at all. You seem to think that a massive betrayal of trust would be better for someone you're breaking up with, than telling them that you're leaving them for other reasons, because it gives them something to hate afterwards. I'd say that's arse-backwards, personally.
      - lsd5you 9y ago
        Yes, that is what I am saying (conditionally). I realise this is a contrarian thing to say. Again the level of trust is going to vary between relationships, and what has happened in the relationship and the character of the individuals involved. Marriage obviously has explicit promises, but there is a general social contract. This whole don't mention gender thing is very tedious and borderline thought police. It is simply not that offensive what I am writing. If it doesn't apply to you and yours then good for you. In any case it was grounding it in personal experience.

LordKano 9y ago

Death threats are never ok but hatred is completely understandable. To feel hatred for someone who betrayed you, who lied to you, who acted like you were a crazy person for feeling the disconnect between the two of you, who accepted your fidelity while not returning it and made you doubt your worth as a human being is perfectly understandable.

lsd5you 9y ago
You see I dispute this. If you just break up with someone and tell them it's just no good (or even all those things you did are too much to take) then that can leave them feeling even worse. Again we are all talking in massive generalities and no two situations are exactly the same - which is why we shouldn't have a totalitarian view on this issue.

jwalgenbach 9y ago

Yeah, that's crap. Let's translate that philosophy to other "wrong" activities, shall we? "Spending money is more exciting when it's stolen. Saving is much more meaningful if there is the possibility that someone can steal it." "Life is more meaningful when someone is actively trying to kill you. Murder is much less exciting because it's wrong." You see the problem? The notion that actively doing something awful to someone else makes what they have meaningful, and what you are doing exciting is just selfishness and justification. You don't like monogamy? No one is forcing you into it. Unhappy with your [life | partner | marriage | whatever] and you think the answer is outside your agreed upon monogamous relationship? End it. Divorce is legal. Breaking up without marriage is even easier. There is no tyranny is a relationship you enter into of your own volition. You have children? Don't be an asshole and hurt their other parent because you have issues. End the relationship before starting another one. Be the person your children can respect. The other person in the relationship? Don't be that. Because you are being a party to deceit. No, you aren't the one cheating, and that justification only goes so far, but it still shows a base selfishness that informs your character. You ought to expect to be hated, because that weakness and selfishness that makes up your character is the instrument that harms someone else. In the pain that is being caused, you are the weapon that is being used by the person cheating to hurt their partner.

lsd5you 9y ago
Yes, but I am speaking as someone who did just break up with someone. Amazing how noone can actually read that part and just jumps to long ranty insults. Confirmation bias is going to be especially common if you delete words when as you read. (I assume you are addressing me when you say 'you' this and 'you' that). The reality of my case is (well it's a complicated story) that it may well have gone better for them psychologically if there was a clear betrayal on my part. Maybe mine is an extreme case, and in anycase knowing what I know wouldn't have made me cheat - I would rather be in the right - but then again it's easy to say that ... Everyone seems to be taking such an absolute position. Which is ridiculous really since it really is culturally relative e.g. in france they are much more permissive of affairs - with certain thrown in social conditions about being discreet - and again it is not to say they are saying it is right - neither am I, just that it is not such a huge bad to deserve all the vitriol - like I'm getting for even discussing the matter. What is clear is I would never make promises to people with such puritanical attitudes like yours. Clearly it would be a one sided contract since I would be much more forgiving and less entitled and on top of that given the way of hypocricy quite possibly less likely to cheat. Again, if I may argue by analogy, like the anti-gay politicians who are gay, I wonder wether the people who are so anti-affair are infact liable to do so or have done so themselves. Of course there can be tyranny in a voluntary relationship, because you cannot predict the future and you can be bound (by e.g. caring more about the children, or social pressure) to suffer. Some people are fools when it comes to relationships. They may know there partner cheated in the past, they may know they have generally sexually permissive attitude and are unreliable with their promises. Yet the outrage is still there nonetheless. You cannot make something into something it is not. I may as well get outraged if my partner doesn't become a millionairre or doesn't look like a supermodel after a certain age. And just because you can make analogies, doesn't make it right. Somethings are better (for some people) with some danger of a bad outcome. e.g. Extreme sports. Yes, I just don't think you can equate murder or theft to having an affair. Both are actions against a stranger. Now if one partner misspends a large sum of shared money then that is an ambiguous situation which is worth comparing.