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No, I'm interpreting "criticism" as smug hate because the criticism isn't really related to the article and isn't even accurate. stolen along with unlimited sl

No, I'm interpreting "criticism" as smug hate because the criticism isn't really related to the article and isn't even accurate. stolen along with unlimited slave labour and IP from Europe Exaggerated bullshit. Using jingoism to spin this into some sort of exceptionalism celebrates the loot and plunder Where's the jingoism in that article? The thread was a good excuse to get the hate on. If the OP would like to make accurate and measured claims, then we could have a discussion.

ionised 9y ago
I'm not talking about the article, I'm talking about your overreaction.
freeflight 9y ago
> Where's the jingoism in that article? The thread was a good excuse to get the hate on. If the OP would like to make accurate and measured claims, then we could have a discussion. Ain't that a tad bit thin-skinned? If you consider this "hate" then boy ain't you lucky that you are no German. As a German, the only thing most people know about the country or culture pretty much boils down to "Oh Hitler and you killed millions of Jews!" maybe throw in some "beer/sausage/sauerkraut" for good measure. No nation is perfect, pretty much every nation has some "ugly spots" in their past, the difference being in how nations treat these ugly spots. Imho that is where the US, as a nation, has been failing and keeps on failing because it considers itself so "exceptional" that even morals don't apply and as such it supposedly did never do anything wrong at all. A very one-sided narrative, a view of human history like it's all just a comic book story about the "good guys fighting the bad guys" where the good guys could never do wrong because for them the ends of "beating evil" always justify the means, it's like a "Hollywood reality". This isn't meant as an attack on the country or the people, but merely as an outside observation: The US pretending to be "the good guys", regardless of what kind of methods they use or motivations they have, is one of the reasons why so many people around the world consider the US a nation of hypocrites and the biggest and most dangerous "rogue nation" on this planet. Yes, this also exists in other countries, but no other country has such a global cultural/military reach and influence as the US does, so it sticks out the most and ends up influencing world affairs the most. Again: This is not "hate", it's an observation from an outside-the-US PoV that's merely meant to inform.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  I just don't believe that US as a whole is really so unaware of its past. I grew up in Texas public schools and we learned about the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, Jim Crow, etc. We're very aware of a very dark history. If the US was really such an intolerant and unrepentant place, you wouldn't even have a debate about race. By and large we are a society that acknowledges wrongs and tries to fix them, even if it take decades to do so. I believe that's because the US is really not a singular culture but a mix of many, which ends up being a great advantage. If it appears from the outside that the US sees itself in Hollywood good vs evil terms, everyone does. I guarantee you Merkel believes she is on the right side of history and a lot of Germans that they are culturally superior to others (you can observe it in this thread; maybe they have good reason). Yeah, US media promulgates a biased message, but that's Hollywood, US media at the same time is very ready to criticize such absurdities (see World Police, or modern political humor which is huge worldwide - Stewart, Colbert, Oliver). It's just annoying to hear people from outside cultures try and shrink down a nation of 50 mini-nations and 300 million people into some kind of comprehensive worldview. It's not reality. I assume other countries aren't perfect places, but I'm not on French and German message boards telling Germans how they're just thieves and murderers and that's why they have been successful. If you'll reread some of the comments in this thread, that sentiment is barely hidden.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    Awareness ain't everything, case in point: Millions of neo-Nazis are aware that the Holocaust happened, that still didn't and doesn't change a thing about their beliefs. That's because it's about more than merely "being aware", it's also about taking responsibility and learning a lesson and sadly it looks like that hasn't really happened in the US yet, exemplified by statements like this one: > If the US was really such an intolerant and unrepentant place, you wouldn't even have a debate about race. It's funny how you think that's something positive when it's anything but. It's the year 2017, that's probably a couple of decades too late for a "race debate" which isn't even a debate at all. What happened in Charlottesville wasn't a "debate", it was a show of force by the US American far-right, which only acts so emboldened because the US never really dealt with its race issues besides "being aware" of them and acting decades too late, Charlottesville was the result of this half-arsed behavior and I fear it won't be the only nor the last one. > If it appears from the outside that the US sees itself in Hollywood good vs evil terms, everyone does. The difference being that the US has such a massive and far-reaching cultural influence that the "good guy" tale ain't only influencing US Americans in their patriotism, it basically ends up brainwashing large parts of foreign populations. Of course, Merkel believes she is on the right side, so did Hitler, so did Raegan, so did Stalin. The difference being: Merkel is at least aware that this ain't always true, due to cultural history, the same doesn't apply to the US to the same degree if at all. The US, as a country, never has acknowledged or atoned for any "national shame", that's why "US patriots" feel so comfortable bathing in their ultra-nationalism while being hilariously unaware of how fanatic it makes them. Yes, there are Germans who consider their own culture superior to others, the difference being: It's not socially accepted in Germany at all, people like that are usually considered bigots. This is because we Germans are not only aware of our past mistakes, we take responsibility by trying not to repeat them. And one of the mistakes Germans made was following unfettered fanatism in the form of patriotism. Patriotism and national pride had both been major driving elements for the Nazis taking over power and being able to commit their crimes. In that regard, the US shares many similarities with the Third Reich, more than most people would like to admit. Way too many US Americans are complicit in their countries crimes as they rather indulge in their patriotism about being "Number One" in "everything". > US media at the same time is very ready to criticize such absurdities (see World Police, or modern political humor which is huge worldwide - Stewart, Colbert, Oliver). I'm sure Colbert and Oliver have just as much international reach and influence as Hollywood blockbuster movies like Black Hawk Down, American Sniper, Top Gun or even Casablanca, which have been shaping world opinions about the US for decades. > It's just annoying to hear people from outside cultures try and shrink down a nation of 50 mini-nations and 300 million people into some kind of comprehensive worldview. It's not reality. The US ain't "50 mini-nations", the cultural, linguistical and geographical differences just don't support a statement like that. There's also a reason these states are United because they share "some kind of comprehensive worldview", which at its most basic level starts with the "American Dream" and at the extreme ends results with "America Number 1, America First" fanatics. > I assume other countries aren't perfect places, but I'm not on French and German message boards telling Germans how they're just thieves and murderers and that's why they have been successful. Excuse my naivety, but to me, this ain't a "US American message board", I rarely think in such terms when I'm surfing online, to me, it's foremost an English language message board devoid of any national connection. There are lots of international topics and people around here, just because somebody speaks English, or a board uses it as its language, does not make them US American.

ionised 9y ago

I'm not talking about the article, I'm talking about your overreaction.

freeflight 9y ago

> Where's the jingoism in that article? The thread was a good excuse to get the hate on. If the OP would like to make accurate and measured claims, then we could have a discussion. Ain't that a tad bit thin-skinned? If you consider this "hate" then boy ain't you lucky that you are no German. As a German, the only thing most people know about the country or culture pretty much boils down to "Oh Hitler and you killed millions of Jews!" maybe throw in some "beer/sausage/sauerkraut" for good measure. No nation is perfect, pretty much every nation has some "ugly spots" in their past, the difference being in how nations treat these ugly spots. Imho that is where the US, as a nation, has been failing and keeps on failing because it considers itself so "exceptional" that even morals don't apply and as such it supposedly did never do anything wrong at all. A very one-sided narrative, a view of human history like it's all just a comic book story about the "good guys fighting the bad guys" where the good guys could never do wrong because for them the ends of "beating evil" always justify the means, it's like a "Hollywood reality". This isn't meant as an attack on the country or the people, but merely as an outside observation: The US pretending to be "the good guys", regardless of what kind of methods they use or motivations they have, is one of the reasons why so many people around the world consider the US a nation of hypocrites and the biggest and most dangerous "rogue nation" on this planet. Yes, this also exists in other countries, but no other country has such a global cultural/military reach and influence as the US does, so it sticks out the most and ends up influencing world affairs the most. Again: This is not "hate", it's an observation from an outside-the-US PoV that's merely meant to inform.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
I just don't believe that US as a whole is really so unaware of its past. I grew up in Texas public schools and we learned about the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, Jim Crow, etc. We're very aware of a very dark history. If the US was really such an intolerant and unrepentant place, you wouldn't even have a debate about race. By and large we are a society that acknowledges wrongs and tries to fix them, even if it take decades to do so. I believe that's because the US is really not a singular culture but a mix of many, which ends up being a great advantage. If it appears from the outside that the US sees itself in Hollywood good vs evil terms, everyone does. I guarantee you Merkel believes she is on the right side of history and a lot of Germans that they are culturally superior to others (you can observe it in this thread; maybe they have good reason). Yeah, US media promulgates a biased message, but that's Hollywood, US media at the same time is very ready to criticize such absurdities (see World Police, or modern political humor which is huge worldwide - Stewart, Colbert, Oliver). It's just annoying to hear people from outside cultures try and shrink down a nation of 50 mini-nations and 300 million people into some kind of comprehensive worldview. It's not reality. I assume other countries aren't perfect places, but I'm not on French and German message boards telling Germans how they're just thieves and murderers and that's why they have been successful. If you'll reread some of the comments in this thread, that sentiment is barely hidden.
- freeflight 9y ago
  Awareness ain't everything, case in point: Millions of neo-Nazis are aware that the Holocaust happened, that still didn't and doesn't change a thing about their beliefs. That's because it's about more than merely "being aware", it's also about taking responsibility and learning a lesson and sadly it looks like that hasn't really happened in the US yet, exemplified by statements like this one: > If the US was really such an intolerant and unrepentant place, you wouldn't even have a debate about race. It's funny how you think that's something positive when it's anything but. It's the year 2017, that's probably a couple of decades too late for a "race debate" which isn't even a debate at all. What happened in Charlottesville wasn't a "debate", it was a show of force by the US American far-right, which only acts so emboldened because the US never really dealt with its race issues besides "being aware" of them and acting decades too late, Charlottesville was the result of this half-arsed behavior and I fear it won't be the only nor the last one. > If it appears from the outside that the US sees itself in Hollywood good vs evil terms, everyone does. The difference being that the US has such a massive and far-reaching cultural influence that the "good guy" tale ain't only influencing US Americans in their patriotism, it basically ends up brainwashing large parts of foreign populations. Of course, Merkel believes she is on the right side, so did Hitler, so did Raegan, so did Stalin. The difference being: Merkel is at least aware that this ain't always true, due to cultural history, the same doesn't apply to the US to the same degree if at all. The US, as a country, never has acknowledged or atoned for any "national shame", that's why "US patriots" feel so comfortable bathing in their ultra-nationalism while being hilariously unaware of how fanatic it makes them. Yes, there are Germans who consider their own culture superior to others, the difference being: It's not socially accepted in Germany at all, people like that are usually considered bigots. This is because we Germans are not only aware of our past mistakes, we take responsibility by trying not to repeat them. And one of the mistakes Germans made was following unfettered fanatism in the form of patriotism. Patriotism and national pride had both been major driving elements for the Nazis taking over power and being able to commit their crimes. In that regard, the US shares many similarities with the Third Reich, more than most people would like to admit. Way too many US Americans are complicit in their countries crimes as they rather indulge in their patriotism about being "Number One" in "everything". > US media at the same time is very ready to criticize such absurdities (see World Police, or modern political humor which is huge worldwide - Stewart, Colbert, Oliver). I'm sure Colbert and Oliver have just as much international reach and influence as Hollywood blockbuster movies like Black Hawk Down, American Sniper, Top Gun or even Casablanca, which have been shaping world opinions about the US for decades. > It's just annoying to hear people from outside cultures try and shrink down a nation of 50 mini-nations and 300 million people into some kind of comprehensive worldview. It's not reality. The US ain't "50 mini-nations", the cultural, linguistical and geographical differences just don't support a statement like that. There's also a reason these states are United because they share "some kind of comprehensive worldview", which at its most basic level starts with the "American Dream" and at the extreme ends results with "America Number 1, America First" fanatics. > I assume other countries aren't perfect places, but I'm not on French and German message boards telling Germans how they're just thieves and murderers and that's why they have been successful. Excuse my naivety, but to me, this ain't a "US American message board", I rarely think in such terms when I'm surfing online, to me, it's foremost an English language message board devoid of any national connection. There are lots of international topics and people around here, just because somebody speaks English, or a board uses it as its language, does not make them US American.