4 ms·

In Android, it is not mandatory to use Google apps - you can use your favorite browser, mail or maps instead of the Google ones. Firefox, Nine or Here, for exam

In Android, it is not mandatory to use Google apps - you can use your favorite browser, mail or maps instead of the Google ones. Firefox, Nine or Here, for example.

Tepix 9y ago
Your typical Android phone calls home around 1200 times per day. Getting that number down to zero means making it pretty much unusable.
- vetinari 9y ago
  The difference between Android and Google Play Services/Google Apps Suite is, that the latter use Google servers and the former does not. If removing these apps makes Android unusable for you, it means you are hooked on or locked-in to them. Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them.
  - wyager 9y ago
    > Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them. Yes I could, if the average android phone would allow me to do so. You can't go to the store, buy a phone, and remove google play services. At the very least you have to root the phone, which isn't possible on most devices.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      You can also not put in username and password for a Google account. Without authenticated account, Google Play Services won't work. What you can do, is to install apps or plugins for CalDAV/CardDAV-like services. The account system works with any generic account, not just with Google accounts; you can implement any service you want talking with any protocol you want. You don't need Google Play Services source for that. Removing apks for android installation is cannon for sparrows. Remember, /system is not only for running the system, but also for factory reset/recovery too.
  - tomp 9y ago
    > Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them. It wouldn't be ideal, but a big improvement. Providing a clear API to Store, Maps, Mail, etc. would (1) allow developers to publish their own client for these services (that e.g. don't display ads, or don't track the user, or obfuscate/anonymise the information they send to the servers), and (2) allow competing backends to be developed and allow the users to choose between them without having to change the mobile OS.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      So you want to use their back end with your front end, and remove their monetization? Why would they even entertain the thought of agreeing to something like that? The much better approach is bring your own backed. E.g. I'm using Sygic (because it is offline and the roaming fees were killing the online maps) and it works in the all places where the original Maps work. If I click in the Booking.com app to navigate to the hotel, for example, Sygic (and other alternate maps) work seamlessly in place of Google Maps. All that without having to use their back end. The APIs for doing that are already there since v1. In other words, (1) developers could publish for years alternative implementations, with any back end that allows that in it's TOS (though Google's doesn't) and (2) this was always possible.
      - tomp 9y ago
        I'm not saying they have to allow that, I'm just saying that's what it would take them to "neutralize" the threat of their business model for users (and become as trustworth as Apple).
        vetinari 9y ago
        Unfortunately, this is the case of wanting to have a cake and eat it too. That's why I wrote that bringing alternate implementations is a better approach. That way you don't want something for nothing (use Google resources without any compensation; you don't pay them anything after all, but you do pay to Apple).
  - j_s 9y ago
    > the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them Not sure to what degree replacement is actually possible today, but microG is heading in that direction. https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ - a free software clone of Google’s proprietary core libraries and applications · Google Play Services or Google Maps Android API (v2) · Google Cloud to Device Messaging · Google’s network location provider Further discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864429 (Nov 2016) and other comments https://hn.algolia.com/?query=microg.org&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=microg.org&sort=byDate&type=co...
- avian 9y ago
  As a long-time Android user, I'm genuinely curious what those calls home contain. Do you have any links with more information?
- Gaelan 9y ago
  What does that number look like on iOS?
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  Getting your iPhone to stop calling Apple and Google would make it unusable as well. The difference is that it's actually impossible to do on an iPhone.
- bitmapbrother 9y ago
  >Your typical Android phone calls home around 1200 times per day Do you have any proof to back up the claim?
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    I don't know how many times Google Maps calls home, but it does it often enough for Google to know where any Android user that hasn't explicitly disabled location tracking has spent each minute of his/her life. The proof is easy obtainable on Google Maps location history.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      It doesn't call home with each data point; that would mean that radio is never standby and the user would notice that his battery is quickly dead. No, location history is a _feature_, where saved datapoint set is submitted in batches, when the radio is active. And of course, you can turn it off (I did).
    - bitmapbrother 9y ago
      You did say 1200 times per day. How did you arrive at this number and what tools did you use to find this out. I would like to verify this.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        No I didn't, check the username.
- floatboth 9y ago
  My phone with LineageOS + microG is very usable. It does use Google's service for Push Notifications (because I do want them) — with an open source client for that service.
grecy 9y ago
Pfft. I bought a super cheap Android phone, and can't even download a single app without signing up for a google account!
- vetinari 9y ago
  You mean you cannot download it from Google Play Store? That's right, that's the thing that analyzes you, why would you do that? Instead, use alternatives: https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/ https://www.amazon.com/getappstore https://www.amazon.com/getappstore http://shouji.baidu.com/ http://shouji.baidu.com/ https://store.yandex.com/ https://store.yandex.com/ or any other store, or just install your favorite apks.
- derefr 9y ago
  So sign up for a Google Account. As long as you're not using Google+, there's no requirement that a Google Account have accurate, personally-identifying information. And if it's only used to sign into the Play Store, then all Google will know about "you" is what apps you've downloaded. (And you can sign back out of the Play Store in Settings right after if you want, though you won't be able to retrieve updates then.)
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  Sure you can. You're free to download from the Amazon App Store or any other app store or even get your apps directly from the developer. You're confusing your cheap Android phone with an expensive iPhone. On the latter, you need an Apple account just to download apps, and their App Store tracks you exactly the same amount as Google's Play Store.

In Android, it is not mandatory to use Google apps - you can use your favorite browser, mail or maps instead of the Google ones. Firefox, Nine or Here, for example.

Tepix 9y ago

Your typical Android phone calls home around 1200 times per day. Getting that number down to zero means making it pretty much unusable.

vetinari 9y ago
The difference between Android and Google Play Services/Google Apps Suite is, that the latter use Google servers and the former does not. If removing these apps makes Android unusable for you, it means you are hooked on or locked-in to them. Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them.
- wyager 9y ago
  > Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them. Yes I could, if the average android phone would allow me to do so. You can't go to the store, buy a phone, and remove google play services. At the very least you have to root the phone, which isn't possible on most devices.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    You can also not put in username and password for a Google account. Without authenticated account, Google Play Services won't work. What you can do, is to install apps or plugins for CalDAV/CardDAV-like services. The account system works with any generic account, not just with Google accounts; you can implement any service you want talking with any protocol you want. You don't need Google Play Services source for that. Removing apks for android installation is cannon for sparrows. Remember, /system is not only for running the system, but also for factory reset/recovery too.
- tomp 9y ago
  > Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them. It wouldn't be ideal, but a big improvement. Providing a clear API to Store, Maps, Mail, etc. would (1) allow developers to publish their own client for these services (that e.g. don't display ads, or don't track the user, or obfuscate/anonymise the information they send to the servers), and (2) allow competing backends to be developed and allow the users to choose between them without having to change the mobile OS.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    So you want to use their back end with your front end, and remove their monetization? Why would they even entertain the thought of agreeing to something like that? The much better approach is bring your own backed. E.g. I'm using Sygic (because it is offline and the roaming fees were killing the online maps) and it works in the all places where the original Maps work. If I click in the Booking.com app to navigate to the hotel, for example, Sygic (and other alternate maps) work seamlessly in place of Google Maps. All that without having to use their back end. The APIs for doing that are already there since v1. In other words, (1) developers could publish for years alternative implementations, with any back end that allows that in it's TOS (though Google's doesn't) and (2) this was always possible.
    - tomp 9y ago
      I'm not saying they have to allow that, I'm just saying that's what it would take them to "neutralize" the threat of their business model for users (and become as trustworth as Apple).
      - vetinari 9y ago
        Unfortunately, this is the case of wanting to have a cake and eat it too. That's why I wrote that bringing alternate implementations is a better approach. That way you don't want something for nothing (use Google resources without any compensation; you don't pay them anything after all, but you do pay to Apple).
- j_s 9y ago
  > the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them Not sure to what degree replacement is actually possible today, but microG is heading in that direction. https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ - a free software clone of Google’s proprietary core libraries and applications · Google Play Services or Google Maps Android API (v2) · Google Cloud to Device Messaging · Google’s network location provider Further discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864429 (Nov 2016) and other comments https://hn.algolia.com/?query=microg.org&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=microg.org&sort=byDate&type=co...
avian 9y ago
As a long-time Android user, I'm genuinely curious what those calls home contain. Do you have any links with more information?
Gaelan 9y ago
What does that number look like on iOS?
lern_too_spel 9y ago
Getting your iPhone to stop calling Apple and Google would make it unusable as well. The difference is that it's actually impossible to do on an iPhone.
bitmapbrother 9y ago
>Your typical Android phone calls home around 1200 times per day Do you have any proof to back up the claim?
- pjmlp 9y ago
  I don't know how many times Google Maps calls home, but it does it often enough for Google to know where any Android user that hasn't explicitly disabled location tracking has spent each minute of his/her life. The proof is easy obtainable on Google Maps location history.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    It doesn't call home with each data point; that would mean that radio is never standby and the user would notice that his battery is quickly dead. No, location history is a _feature_, where saved datapoint set is submitted in batches, when the radio is active. And of course, you can turn it off (I did).
  - bitmapbrother 9y ago
    You did say 1200 times per day. How did you arrive at this number and what tools did you use to find this out. I would like to verify this.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      No I didn't, check the username.
floatboth 9y ago
My phone with LineageOS + microG is very usable. It does use Google's service for Push Notifications (because I do want them) — with an open source client for that service.

grecy 9y ago

Pfft. I bought a super cheap Android phone, and can't even download a single app without signing up for a google account!

vetinari 9y ago
You mean you cannot download it from Google Play Store? That's right, that's the thing that analyzes you, why would you do that? Instead, use alternatives: https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/ https://www.amazon.com/getappstore https://www.amazon.com/getappstore http://shouji.baidu.com/ http://shouji.baidu.com/ https://store.yandex.com/ https://store.yandex.com/ or any other store, or just install your favorite apks.
derefr 9y ago
So sign up for a Google Account. As long as you're not using Google+, there's no requirement that a Google Account have accurate, personally-identifying information. And if it's only used to sign into the Play Store, then all Google will know about "you" is what apps you've downloaded. (And you can sign back out of the Play Store in Settings right after if you want, though you won't be able to retrieve updates then.)
lern_too_spel 9y ago
Sure you can. You're free to download from the Amazon App Store or any other app store or even get your apps directly from the developer. You're confusing your cheap Android phone with an expensive iPhone. On the latter, you need an Apple account just to download apps, and their App Store tracks you exactly the same amount as Google's Play Store.