4 ms·

It's really great to think your team is the most important thing, but you don't pay their salaries, the company does. Your team's health can absolutely be the

by bbarn 9y ago

It's really great to think your team is the most important thing, but you don't pay their salaries, the company does. Your team's health can absolutely be the number one vehicle you use to get the company the results they are after, but you can't forget the fact that the company employs you, and them for reasons other than their happiness.

sidlls 9y ago
This is very much the case. Also, though many on HN might not like it, software developers are not special. There are many, many people with sufficient skill and interest to replace most developers in most companies. That said, it's a mistake to treat developers like commodities or to dismiss their concerns and desires as second to the company, in my opinion. Churn hurts, and demoralized teams have negative impact on develpment.
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  > There are many, many people with sufficient skill and interest to replace most developers in most companies. Of course. The vast majority of whom are already employed at market rates. I can easily be replaced but the company will be eating close to $100k in costs as well as taking on more short term risk.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- donovanm 9y ago
  If software engineers are really so easy to replace then why hasn't it happened? They're currently paid more then most professions so clearly businesses would take a cheaper path if available.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    It happens all the time, especially outside of anomalies like the Bay Area. Even in the Bay Area it happens frequently enough. Pay is higher in the Bay Area and similar locations because of artificial constraints from the demand-side, not because of a lack of supply. Outside the Bay Area (and similar places) developers aren't paid that much better than any other college educated, skilled worker. I came from outside the Bay Area. This world is...very different from the software world in most other places.
    - donovanm 9y ago
      The median pay across the whole US for software engineers is quite a bit higher then the median income for all professions. Or are you referring to a different country?
      - kobeya 9y ago
        He may have meant “professional occupations” which means doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.
        holtalanm 9y ago
        I know people working for the railroad as track workers that make more than the median salary for a software engineer in my area. So, take 'professional occupations' with a grain of salt. There are high-paying occupations that don't require a 4-year college degree.
        TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Doctors have an extra 4 years of very expensive school plus an extra 3-7 years of training. Lawyers have an extra 3 years of very expensive school and only make about 15% more on average than software developers. Accountants make on average about 30% less than software developers.
  - watwut 9y ago
    It is happening in the long term. Software engineers are in the long term often being replaced by other software engineers. The process does not exists in world where people change companies before the companies could realize they need to be changed or where companies lifecycle is short (e.g. startups which die before 2 years and participants move to other positions.)
  - meddlepal 9y ago
    Software engineers being replaced occurs in a more indirect way. Usually through automation and third party SaaS. Companies replace their own devs with technology and other companies devs rather.
fao_ 9y ago
Right, and the #1 job your company employs you to do as a manager is... manage your team. You absolutely have to look after your team first, because the company's health follows the health of it's components.
- sidlls 9y ago
  I disagree with both of these as absolutes. My manager's job is to advocate for work for his team, to make sure our work is aligned with the company's strategic and tactical goals, and to keep the individual contributors' morale as high as possible. The latter is looking after the team, of course, but realistically sometimes the needs of the company and the desires of ICs on the team diverge. In that case a manager's job is to transition those members who aren't in alignment off the team, preferably to another in the company if their talent merits but out of the company is a good solution also.
nuggety 9y ago
But here's the thing: as a manager you only can control your team. Companies (especially public companies) are capitalistic machines that want to show growth each quarter. Good management is the only thing keeping humanity in the picture. Lots of companies die because they pursue quarterly growth. Team-focused managers focus on long-term health of the company.
- cema 9y ago
  How I would like this point to be true! It sounds plausible but I do not have a proof.

by bbarn 9y ago

sidlls 9y ago

This is very much the case. Also, though many on HN might not like it, software developers are not special. There are many, many people with sufficient skill and interest to replace most developers in most companies. That said, it's a mistake to treat developers like commodities or to dismiss their concerns and desires as second to the company, in my opinion. Churn hurts, and demoralized teams have negative impact on develpment.

sheepmullet 9y ago
> There are many, many people with sufficient skill and interest to replace most developers in most companies. Of course. The vast majority of whom are already employed at market rates. I can easily be replaced but the company will be eating close to $100k in costs as well as taking on more short term risk.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
donovanm 9y ago
If software engineers are really so easy to replace then why hasn't it happened? They're currently paid more then most professions so clearly businesses would take a cheaper path if available.
- sidlls 9y ago
  It happens all the time, especially outside of anomalies like the Bay Area. Even in the Bay Area it happens frequently enough. Pay is higher in the Bay Area and similar locations because of artificial constraints from the demand-side, not because of a lack of supply. Outside the Bay Area (and similar places) developers aren't paid that much better than any other college educated, skilled worker. I came from outside the Bay Area. This world is...very different from the software world in most other places.
  - donovanm 9y ago
    The median pay across the whole US for software engineers is quite a bit higher then the median income for all professions. Or are you referring to a different country?
    - kobeya 9y ago
      He may have meant “professional occupations” which means doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.
      - holtalanm 9y ago
        I know people working for the railroad as track workers that make more than the median salary for a software engineer in my area. So, take 'professional occupations' with a grain of salt. There are high-paying occupations that don't require a 4-year college degree.
      - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Doctors have an extra 4 years of very expensive school plus an extra 3-7 years of training. Lawyers have an extra 3 years of very expensive school and only make about 15% more on average than software developers. Accountants make on average about 30% less than software developers.
- watwut 9y ago
  It is happening in the long term. Software engineers are in the long term often being replaced by other software engineers. The process does not exists in world where people change companies before the companies could realize they need to be changed or where companies lifecycle is short (e.g. startups which die before 2 years and participants move to other positions.)
- meddlepal 9y ago
  Software engineers being replaced occurs in a more indirect way. Usually through automation and third party SaaS. Companies replace their own devs with technology and other companies devs rather.

fao_ 9y ago

Right, and the #1 job your company employs you to do as a manager is... manage your team. You absolutely have to look after your team first, because the company's health follows the health of it's components.

sidlls 9y ago
I disagree with both of these as absolutes. My manager's job is to advocate for work for his team, to make sure our work is aligned with the company's strategic and tactical goals, and to keep the individual contributors' morale as high as possible. The latter is looking after the team, of course, but realistically sometimes the needs of the company and the desires of ICs on the team diverge. In that case a manager's job is to transition those members who aren't in alignment off the team, preferably to another in the company if their talent merits but out of the company is a good solution also.

nuggety 9y ago

But here's the thing: as a manager you only can control your team. Companies (especially public companies) are capitalistic machines that want to show growth each quarter. Good management is the only thing keeping humanity in the picture. Lots of companies die because they pursue quarterly growth. Team-focused managers focus on long-term health of the company.

cema 9y ago
How I would like this point to be true! It sounds plausible but I do not have a proof.