3 ms·

> There are entire separate tax codes for you filing individually vs. jointly. This is not true. The tax brackets are different but essentially everything else

by harryh 9y ago

> There are entire separate tax codes for you filing individually vs. jointly. This is not true. The tax brackets are different but essentially everything else is the same. The same things are counted as income. You have the same deductions. You use the same forms. Some other ways that corporations are different from people (just off the top of my head): - A corporation can't get a driver's license. - A corporation can't get federal loans to go to college - A corporation isn't expected to register for the draft at a certain age (does that make a corporation a woman? Hah!). - A corporation cannot "take the 5th" and refuse to testify against itself. - A corporation cannot be sentenced to a prison term as punishment - Corporate free speech rights are more limited than individuals I think you might be confused by the idea of "corporate personhood." This idea doesn't mean that a corporation is a person, it means that corporations have some (but not all!) aspects of being a person.

mdorazio 9y ago
I feel like you're getting into No True Scotsman territory here, especially since you're providing examples that have zero relevance to the matter at hand. However, I'll tackle your rebuttals in order: - I don't think you actually understand the nuances of filing separately vs. jointly. It's a lot more complicated than just different tax brackets and "essentially everything else is the same". For example, filing jointly you cannot take the credit for child and dependent care expenses, you cannot take the earned income credit, you cannot take education credits or deduct student loan interest, etc. There are many more differences as well. It is, in fact, a separate code, not just a separate bracket. - Individuals under the age of 15 also cannot get a drivers license. Does that mean they are not people? - Obtaining loans has no bearing at all on legal status. But even so, a corporation can get all kinds of loans. What difference does it make if the loans are for capital or education? - As you point out, women also are not expected to register for the draft, are they not people? - The 5th amendment is a very interesting case with respect to corporations. You're kind of getting at the Collective Entity Rule, which basically says that an agent acting on behalf of a corporation cannot always exercise his or her personal rights, such as the 5th amendment. Here's what the courts had to say about the justification for the current state of affairs, "The privilege is limited to its historic function of protecting only the natural individual from compulsory incrimination through his own testimony or personal records" (emphasis mine). Note that it says nothing about "person". Also note that there is quite a bit of activity on this particular point, and in the near future the 5th amendment might be allowed to apply to corporations as well [1]. - Minors cannot be sentenced to prison terms, either. Are they not people? - More limited does not mean non-existent. No, I am not confused. In legal status, a corporation is a person. Period. The difference you're missing is that a corporation is an artificial person vs. a natural person (or if you prefer, a statutory person vs. a constitutional person). But still a person. I'll also point you to the definition of Person from Black's law dictionary. Person. In general usage, a human being (i.e. natural person), though by statute term may include labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in bankruptcy, or receivers. [1] https://www.law360.com/articles/634828/high-court-may-take-on-corporate-5th-amendment-privilege https://www.law360.com/articles/634828/high-court-may-take-o...
- harryh 9y ago
  > filing jointly you cannot take the credit for child and dependent care expenses Yes you can. I file jointly and do this. > you cannot take the earned income credit Yes you can. Just google it. > You cannot take education credits or deduct student loan interest, etc. Yes you can. Again, google it. You are wrong. I am tired of arguing with you when you keep saying things that are factually incorrect. Anyone reading this thread will clearly see that you are wrong. Goodbye.
  - mdorazio 9y ago
    I was incorrect on the above - the differences I noted were for married filing separately, not jointly. However, that goes further to prove my point. There are multiple tax codes that apply based on marital and filing status (single, married filing separately, married filing jointly, head of household, etc.) it is far more complicated than just being in a different bracket. That being said, you ignored 90% of my comment, including the legal dictionary definition of Person and are now walking away to prove that I am wrong? Just, wow. This is not the level of debate I expect from HN.

by harryh 9y ago

mdorazio 9y ago

I feel like you're getting into No True Scotsman territory here, especially since you're providing examples that have zero relevance to the matter at hand. However, I'll tackle your rebuttals in order: - I don't think you actually understand the nuances of filing separately vs. jointly. It's a lot more complicated than just different tax brackets and "essentially everything else is the same". For example, filing jointly you cannot take the credit for child and dependent care expenses, you cannot take the earned income credit, you cannot take education credits or deduct student loan interest, etc. There are many more differences as well. It is, in fact, a separate code, not just a separate bracket. - Individuals under the age of 15 also cannot get a drivers license. Does that mean they are not people? - Obtaining loans has no bearing at all on legal status. But even so, a corporation can get all kinds of loans. What difference does it make if the loans are for capital or education? - As you point out, women also are not expected to register for the draft, are they not people? - The 5th amendment is a very interesting case with respect to corporations. You're kind of getting at the Collective Entity Rule, which basically says that an agent acting on behalf of a corporation cannot always exercise his or her personal rights, such as the 5th amendment. Here's what the courts had to say about the justification for the current state of affairs, "The privilege is limited to its historic function of protecting only the natural individual from compulsory incrimination through his own testimony or personal records" (emphasis mine). Note that it says nothing about "person". Also note that there is quite a bit of activity on this particular point, and in the near future the 5th amendment might be allowed to apply to corporations as well [1]. - Minors cannot be sentenced to prison terms, either. Are they not people? - More limited does not mean non-existent. No, I am not confused. In legal status, a corporation is a person. Period. The difference you're missing is that a corporation is an artificial person vs. a natural person (or if you prefer, a statutory person vs. a constitutional person). But still a person. I'll also point you to the definition of Person from Black's law dictionary. Person. In general usage, a human being (i.e. natural person), though by statute term may include labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in bankruptcy, or receivers. [1] https://www.law360.com/articles/634828/high-court-may-take-on-corporate-5th-amendment-privilege https://www.law360.com/articles/634828/high-court-may-take-o...

harryh 9y ago
> filing jointly you cannot take the credit for child and dependent care expenses Yes you can. I file jointly and do this. > you cannot take the earned income credit Yes you can. Just google it. > You cannot take education credits or deduct student loan interest, etc. Yes you can. Again, google it. You are wrong. I am tired of arguing with you when you keep saying things that are factually incorrect. Anyone reading this thread will clearly see that you are wrong. Goodbye.
- mdorazio 9y ago
  I was incorrect on the above - the differences I noted were for married filing separately, not jointly. However, that goes further to prove my point. There are multiple tax codes that apply based on marital and filing status (single, married filing separately, married filing jointly, head of household, etc.) it is far more complicated than just being in a different bracket. That being said, you ignored 90% of my comment, including the legal dictionary definition of Person and are now walking away to prove that I am wrong? Just, wow. This is not the level of debate I expect from HN.