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I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that

I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?

abiox 9y ago
i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner. where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations? consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be content with 'non-whites' arresting them and carting them off to jail or court?
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  Well, I'd refer you to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics... You are free to disagree with the thesis, of course.
dmix 9y ago
> Where does culture enter into this? For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish). > The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the politics driven out of middle-class America which push out ineffective criminal justice policy. These need to be confronted on a culture-by-culture basis. For example, just look at how so many people with honest concern about violence in ghettos often blame it on the black race, or because of the popularity of the former, non-racists who criticize it will get dismissed as merely being racists. But just because they are primarily black doesn't mean the problem is racial nor does it mean their race is entirely why they got into that position. There are plenty of non-black ghettos with high violence and low educations in many countries. If you lump it all into a racial issue you will only get a huge push back as we see here in this thread. For good reasons too, it's as reductive and irrational as the racists or anti-semites. You could get all social-science academia about it, but all cultures are partially social constructs. And pretending it's only a social construction is similarly reductive, there is more than enough resesrch on the genetic S culture.
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  So, this whole thread started because people were freaking out over a college professor calling whiteness a racist concept, yes? I think we've been over how it has been exactly that historically. So what's the issue? Are we just in violent agreement here?
  - dmix 9y ago
    Not if you think this issue is a product of 'whiteness' as a product of a social construct. If so you have very much misunderstood what I'm saying.

abiox 9y ago

i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner. where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations? consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be content with 'non-whites' arresting them and carting them off to jail or court?

Blackthorn 9y ago
Well, I'd refer you to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics... You are free to disagree with the thesis, of course.

dmix 9y ago

> Where does culture enter into this? For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish). > The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the politics driven out of middle-class America which push out ineffective criminal justice policy. These need to be confronted on a culture-by-culture basis. For example, just look at how so many people with honest concern about violence in ghettos often blame it on the black race, or because of the popularity of the former, non-racists who criticize it will get dismissed as merely being racists. But just because they are primarily black doesn't mean the problem is racial nor does it mean their race is entirely why they got into that position. There are plenty of non-black ghettos with high violence and low educations in many countries. If you lump it all into a racial issue you will only get a huge push back as we see here in this thread. For good reasons too, it's as reductive and irrational as the racists or anti-semites. You could get all social-science academia about it, but all cultures are partially social constructs. And pretending it's only a social construction is similarly reductive, there is more than enough resesrch on the genetic S culture.

Blackthorn 9y ago
So, this whole thread started because people were freaking out over a college professor calling whiteness a racist concept, yes? I think we've been over how it has been exactly that historically. So what's the issue? Are we just in violent agreement here?
- dmix 9y ago
  Not if you think this issue is a product of 'whiteness' as a product of a social construct. If so you have very much misunderstood what I'm saying.