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> So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the

> So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

dmix 9y ago
They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment. Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse. This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cultural defects result in oppression or mass inter-community violence. These are serious problems that can't be addressed honestly.
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?
  - abiox 9y ago
    i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner. where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations? consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be content with 'non-whites' arresting them and carting them off to jail or court?
    - Blackthorn 9y ago
      Well, I'd refer you to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics... You are free to disagree with the thesis, of course.
  - dmix 9y ago
    > Where does culture enter into this? For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish). > The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the politics driven out of middle-class America which push out ineffective criminal justice policy. These need to be confronted on a culture-by-culture basis. For example, just look at how so many people with honest concern about violence in ghettos often blame it on the black race, or because of the popularity of the former, non-racists who criticize it will get dismissed as merely being racists. But just because they are primarily black doesn't mean the problem is racial nor does it mean their race is entirely why they got into that position. There are plenty of non-black ghettos with high violence and low educations in many countries. If you lump it all into a racial issue you will only get a huge push back as we see here in this thread. For good reasons too, it's as reductive and irrational as the racists or anti-semites. You could get all social-science academia about it, but all cultures are partially social constructs. And pretending it's only a social construction is similarly reductive, there is more than enough resesrch on the genetic S culture.
    - Blackthorn 9y ago
      So, this whole thread started because people were freaking out over a college professor calling whiteness a racist concept, yes? I think we've been over how it has been exactly that historically. So what's the issue? Are we just in violent agreement here?
      - dmix 9y ago
        Not if you think this issue is a product of 'whiteness' as a product of a social construct. If so you have very much misunderstood what I'm saying.
wallace_f 9y ago
How are Whites not a race?
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  The concept of whiteness in America was invented to keep out groups that the in group did not like at the time; this goes back to the late 1700s. For example, Irish people for a long time were not considered white (now, of course, they are). Most European immigrants were originally not considered white and looked down upon.
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    What does the box on college, job, and other forms mean when it says race: "Black," "White," "Hispanic," etc?? So Whites select a social construct, while all others select a race? This is remarkably convoluted and confusing. Maybe I am just not smart enough to understand this.
    - Blackthorn 9y ago
      American history can be quite convoluted and confusing. This book might help: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...
      - wallace_f 9y ago
        I do see a valid point to be made about historical racism and how the definitions of who is accepted into the acceptable category (what you call White) has changed over the years. What I don't understand is how White people are also not a race, but a social construct, which literally makes no sense.
        Blackthorn 9y ago
        The history of America, and of whiteness in America, is race. When whiteness has as an entire category changed to exclude undesirables and then include them when they were no longer as undesirable, it's hard to see whiteness as anything but the racist social construct that it has always been historically. I personally estimate that in 100 years Hispanics are going to be considered white as they lose their undesirable status, just like happened to the Irish.

dmix 9y ago

They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment. Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse. This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cultural defects result in oppression or mass inter-community violence. These are serious problems that can't be addressed honestly.

Blackthorn 9y ago
I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?
- abiox 9y ago
  i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner. where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations? consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be content with 'non-whites' arresting them and carting them off to jail or court?
  - Blackthorn 9y ago
    Well, I'd refer you to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics... You are free to disagree with the thesis, of course.
- dmix 9y ago
  > Where does culture enter into this? For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish). > The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the politics driven out of middle-class America which push out ineffective criminal justice policy. These need to be confronted on a culture-by-culture basis. For example, just look at how so many people with honest concern about violence in ghettos often blame it on the black race, or because of the popularity of the former, non-racists who criticize it will get dismissed as merely being racists. But just because they are primarily black doesn't mean the problem is racial nor does it mean their race is entirely why they got into that position. There are plenty of non-black ghettos with high violence and low educations in many countries. If you lump it all into a racial issue you will only get a huge push back as we see here in this thread. For good reasons too, it's as reductive and irrational as the racists or anti-semites. You could get all social-science academia about it, but all cultures are partially social constructs. And pretending it's only a social construction is similarly reductive, there is more than enough resesrch on the genetic S culture.
  - Blackthorn 9y ago
    So, this whole thread started because people were freaking out over a college professor calling whiteness a racist concept, yes? I think we've been over how it has been exactly that historically. So what's the issue? Are we just in violent agreement here?
    - dmix 9y ago
      Not if you think this issue is a product of 'whiteness' as a product of a social construct. If so you have very much misunderstood what I'm saying.

wallace_f 9y ago

How are Whites not a race?

Blackthorn 9y ago
The concept of whiteness in America was invented to keep out groups that the in group did not like at the time; this goes back to the late 1700s. For example, Irish people for a long time were not considered white (now, of course, they are). Most European immigrants were originally not considered white and looked down upon.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  What does the box on college, job, and other forms mean when it says race: "Black," "White," "Hispanic," etc?? So Whites select a social construct, while all others select a race? This is remarkably convoluted and confusing. Maybe I am just not smart enough to understand this.
  - Blackthorn 9y ago
    American history can be quite convoluted and confusing. This book might help: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...
    - wallace_f 9y ago
      I do see a valid point to be made about historical racism and how the definitions of who is accepted into the acceptable category (what you call White) has changed over the years. What I don't understand is how White people are also not a race, but a social construct, which literally makes no sense.
      - Blackthorn 9y ago
        The history of America, and of whiteness in America, is race. When whiteness has as an entire category changed to exclude undesirables and then include them when they were no longer as undesirable, it's hard to see whiteness as anything but the racist social construct that it has always been historically. I personally estimate that in 100 years Hispanics are going to be considered white as they lose their undesirable status, just like happened to the Irish.