6 ms·

> Any professor teaching anti-(any other race'ness') would be instantly a pariah and unable to keep a job. Whiteness isn't really a race, so that's not the sam

> Any professor teaching anti-(any other race'ness') would be instantly a pariah and unable to keep a job. Whiteness isn't really a race, so that's not the same thing. In America, it's been a social construct whose members have shifted over the years. > I have a question. When I grew up I heard 'colorblindness' was a good thing. What happened to that? It appears we are going in the opposite direction. People started to realize that it ignores the lived experience of black people.

wallace_f 9y ago
I feel like I don't understand this. Consider the hypothetical courses: "the problem with Jewishness," or "the problem with Blackness." Are those at all acceptable? I am certain they are not! So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  > So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?
  - dmix 9y ago
    They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment. Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse. This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cultural defects result in oppression or mass inter-community violence. These are serious problems that can't be addressed honestly.
    - Blackthorn 9y ago
      I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?
      - abiox 9y ago
        i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner. where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations? consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be content with 'non-whites' arresting them and carting them off to jail or court?
        Blackthorn 9y ago
        Well, I'd refer you to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics... You are free to disagree with the thesis, of course.
      - dmix 9y ago
        > Where does culture enter into this? For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish). > The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the politics driven out of middle-class America which push out ineffective criminal justice policy. These need to be confronted on a culture-by-culture basis. For example, just look at how so many people with honest concern about violence in ghettos often blame it on the black race, or because of the popularity of the former, non-racists who criticize it will get dismissed as merely being racists. But just because they are primarily black doesn't mean the problem is racial nor does it mean their race is entirely why they got into that position. There are plenty of non-black ghettos with high violence and low educations in many countries. If you lump it all into a racial issue you will only get a huge push back as we see here in this thread. For good reasons too, it's as reductive and irrational as the racists or anti-semites. You could get all social-science academia about it, but all cultures are partially social constructs. And pretending it's only a social construction is similarly reductive, there is more than enough resesrch on the genetic S culture.
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    How are Whites not a race?
    - Blackthorn 9y ago
      The concept of whiteness in America was invented to keep out groups that the in group did not like at the time; this goes back to the late 1700s. For example, Irish people for a long time were not considered white (now, of course, they are). Most European immigrants were originally not considered white and looked down upon.
      - wallace_f 9y ago
        What does the box on college, job, and other forms mean when it says race: "Black," "White," "Hispanic," etc?? So Whites select a social construct, while all others select a race? This is remarkably convoluted and confusing. Maybe I am just not smart enough to understand this.
        Blackthorn 9y ago
        American history can be quite convoluted and confusing. This book might help: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...
        wallace_f 9y ago
        I do see a valid point to be made about historical racism and how the definitions of who is accepted into the acceptable category (what you call White) has changed over the years. What I don't understand is how White people are also not a race, but a social construct, which literally makes no sense.
        Blackthorn 9y ago
        The history of America, and of whiteness in America, is race. When whiteness has as an entire category changed to exclude undesirables and then include them when they were no longer as undesirable, it's hard to see whiteness as anything but the racist social construct that it has always been historically. I personally estimate that in 100 years Hispanics are going to be considered white as they lose their undesirable status, just like happened to the Irish.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  White people don’t identify as white people. They associate as Italians or Irish or redneck. Black people often don’t either, but are forced to based on skin color.
meri_dian 9y ago
Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people?
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  > Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. No, it's not. > How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not-see-race-ignoring-racism-not-helping https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not...
  - meri_dian 9y ago
    I don't think you understand the philosophy of colorblindness. We can't expect everyone to treat everyone else identically, but we can expect everyone to treat everyone else with respect. Colorblindness advocates that while you may subconsciously classify people into different groups, you shouldn't let that classification get in the way of evaluating a person as an individual. The problem with tribalism is that it doesn't allow me, someone trying to view another as an individual, to do so. It asserts that we can only view each other as faceless expressions of 'our' groups. This is counterproductive and the essential problem with identity politics.
  - juvinious 9y ago
    This form of cultural eugenics serves no ideal purpose to western society. What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is exactly the same position that individuals advocating bill C-16 in Canada so that people are forced to acknowledge others transient or sexual state. Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife.
    - Blackthorn 9y ago
      > This form of cultural eugenics Wow, that escalated quickly. > What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is a strawman; it's not what I'm advocating. What I am advocating is to recognize that black people have a different lived experience than white people. Colorblindness erases that. > Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife. Like racism isn't causing civil strife right now?

wallace_f 9y ago

I feel like I don't understand this. Consider the hypothetical courses: "the problem with Jewishness," or "the problem with Blackness." Are those at all acceptable? I am certain they are not! So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

Blackthorn 9y ago
> So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?
- dmix 9y ago
  They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment. Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse. This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cultural defects result in oppression or mass inter-community violence. These are serious problems that can't be addressed honestly.
  - Blackthorn 9y ago
    I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?
    - abiox 9y ago
      i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner. where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations? consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be content with 'non-whites' arresting them and carting them off to jail or court?
      - Blackthorn 9y ago
        Well, I'd refer you to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics... You are free to disagree with the thesis, of course.
    - dmix 9y ago
      > Where does culture enter into this? For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish). > The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the politics driven out of middle-class America which push out ineffective criminal justice policy. These need to be confronted on a culture-by-culture basis. For example, just look at how so many people with honest concern about violence in ghettos often blame it on the black race, or because of the popularity of the former, non-racists who criticize it will get dismissed as merely being racists. But just because they are primarily black doesn't mean the problem is racial nor does it mean their race is entirely why they got into that position. There are plenty of non-black ghettos with high violence and low educations in many countries. If you lump it all into a racial issue you will only get a huge push back as we see here in this thread. For good reasons too, it's as reductive and irrational as the racists or anti-semites. You could get all social-science academia about it, but all cultures are partially social constructs. And pretending it's only a social construction is similarly reductive, there is more than enough resesrch on the genetic S culture.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  How are Whites not a race?
  - Blackthorn 9y ago
    The concept of whiteness in America was invented to keep out groups that the in group did not like at the time; this goes back to the late 1700s. For example, Irish people for a long time were not considered white (now, of course, they are). Most European immigrants were originally not considered white and looked down upon.
    - wallace_f 9y ago
      What does the box on college, job, and other forms mean when it says race: "Black," "White," "Hispanic," etc?? So Whites select a social construct, while all others select a race? This is remarkably convoluted and confusing. Maybe I am just not smart enough to understand this.
      - Blackthorn 9y ago
        American history can be quite convoluted and confusing. This book might help: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095 https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...
        wallace_f 9y ago
        I do see a valid point to be made about historical racism and how the definitions of who is accepted into the acceptable category (what you call White) has changed over the years. What I don't understand is how White people are also not a race, but a social construct, which literally makes no sense.
        Blackthorn 9y ago
        The history of America, and of whiteness in America, is race. When whiteness has as an entire category changed to exclude undesirables and then include them when they were no longer as undesirable, it's hard to see whiteness as anything but the racist social construct that it has always been historically. I personally estimate that in 100 years Hispanics are going to be considered white as they lose their undesirable status, just like happened to the Irish.
Spooky23 9y ago
White people don’t identify as white people. They associate as Italians or Irish or redneck. Black people often don’t either, but are forced to based on skin color.

meri_dian 9y ago

Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people?

Blackthorn 9y ago
> Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. No, it's not. > How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not-see-race-ignoring-racism-not-helping https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not...
- meri_dian 9y ago
  I don't think you understand the philosophy of colorblindness. We can't expect everyone to treat everyone else identically, but we can expect everyone to treat everyone else with respect. Colorblindness advocates that while you may subconsciously classify people into different groups, you shouldn't let that classification get in the way of evaluating a person as an individual. The problem with tribalism is that it doesn't allow me, someone trying to view another as an individual, to do so. It asserts that we can only view each other as faceless expressions of 'our' groups. This is counterproductive and the essential problem with identity politics.
- juvinious 9y ago
  This form of cultural eugenics serves no ideal purpose to western society. What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is exactly the same position that individuals advocating bill C-16 in Canada so that people are forced to acknowledge others transient or sexual state. Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife.
  - Blackthorn 9y ago
    > This form of cultural eugenics Wow, that escalated quickly. > What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is a strawman; it's not what I'm advocating. What I am advocating is to recognize that black people have a different lived experience than white people. Colorblindness erases that. > Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife. Like racism isn't causing civil strife right now?