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> does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound I'm puzzled by this (possibly rhetorical?) question. Which culture is supposed to be loathing itself h

> does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound I'm puzzled by this (possibly rhetorical?) question. Which culture is supposed to be loathing itself here?

raverbashing 9y ago
Something that would be called "western/christian/european" civilization
- crispinb 9y ago
  Hardly that I would think. The anti-tribal direction of modern world history originated in the Enlightenment, which, although catalysed by contacts with Muslim, Indian and Chinese civilisations, was nothing if not profoundly 'Western'.
  - vikiomega9 9y ago
    How is "western/christian/european" different from "western"? EDIT: the current framework of international order has roots in Westphalian notions of nation states, which is indeed christian and european.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  One big point of “Western civilization” (religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance; the classical liberal / republican tradition with religious toleration and representative government; science; European legal traditions with an independent judiciary; economic liberalism; down through to the Geneva Conventions; the UN and similar institutions; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; universal education; universal suffrage; etc.) is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law and more just and egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    > religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance (just because I didn't know that word) Mores: "The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group." > is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law Agreed. You just have to convince the other "tribes" to do that as well. And the more people are forced to accept other people from a more distant (not geographical distance) culture, the stronger the backlash is > more egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes How many forced marriages, FGMs and honour killings are happening now under the auspice of western secular governments/societies?
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on. There are also many problems related to foreign corporate actors with no local accountability, air and water pollution, environmental destruction, massive distribution of small arms, the international narcotics trade, etc. I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons? Which western/secular governments and which honor killings are you talking about?
      - raverbashing 9y ago
        > As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on. Agreed. When they have the chance > Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons? While propped up regimes are often undemocratic, the anti-secularism (which is different from simply "religious aligned" - like most republicans, as an example) and other factors do not come from it. Though I agree auspice is a bad word to describe it, as governments are indifferent rather than supportive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41193899 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41193899 https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/female-genital-mutilation-fgm/fgm-facts-statistics/ https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-ne...
  - chongli 9y ago
    One big point of “Western civilization” ... is rejecting tribalism It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article. It is a way of selecting members based on adherence to a very complex set of tendencies and behaviours; in other words, a Shibboleth. It's been more successful in the recent term because it has succeeded in identifying tribe members independent of ethnic origin. It absolutely does not shy away from rejecting people who fail at performing the Shibboleth and it doesn't care if those people are the direct descendents of tribe members. Exhibit A: the number of people in prison in the West.
    - digitalsigil 9y ago
      > It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article. I was going to say this exact same thing --- that, as far as the simulation understands, FairBot is just a more complicated Shibboleth. To properly perform our Shibboleth is to have loved other people, then develop and understanding of murder/genocide and be given an opportunity to express your feeling about it. If these things don't bother you, then you've failed the Shibboleth and need to be killed (or imprisoned) so that you don't damage our society. And, while our society certainly doesn't implement this perfectly, this is the best you can do. The shibboleth has worked so well because, unless you're a sociopath, it comes out of the root of your being. In my mind, the experience of transcendent love is so powerful that we are willing to reject ANY destruction of it, even if it doesn't directly affect us (i.e. I wouldn't kill a mother because, having a mother myself, I know it would destroy a very power human bond).

> does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound I'm puzzled by this (possibly rhetorical?) question. Which culture is supposed to be loathing itself here?

raverbashing 9y ago

Something that would be called "western/christian/european" civilization

crispinb 9y ago
Hardly that I would think. The anti-tribal direction of modern world history originated in the Enlightenment, which, although catalysed by contacts with Muslim, Indian and Chinese civilisations, was nothing if not profoundly 'Western'.
- vikiomega9 9y ago
  How is "western/christian/european" different from "western"? EDIT: the current framework of international order has roots in Westphalian notions of nation states, which is indeed christian and european.
jacobolus 9y ago
One big point of “Western civilization” (religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance; the classical liberal / republican tradition with religious toleration and representative government; science; European legal traditions with an independent judiciary; economic liberalism; down through to the Geneva Conventions; the UN and similar institutions; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; universal education; universal suffrage; etc.) is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law and more just and egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  > religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance (just because I didn't know that word) Mores: "The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group." > is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law Agreed. You just have to convince the other "tribes" to do that as well. And the more people are forced to accept other people from a more distant (not geographical distance) culture, the stronger the backlash is > more egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes How many forced marriages, FGMs and honour killings are happening now under the auspice of western secular governments/societies?
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on. There are also many problems related to foreign corporate actors with no local accountability, air and water pollution, environmental destruction, massive distribution of small arms, the international narcotics trade, etc. I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons? Which western/secular governments and which honor killings are you talking about?
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      > As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on. Agreed. When they have the chance > Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons? While propped up regimes are often undemocratic, the anti-secularism (which is different from simply "religious aligned" - like most republicans, as an example) and other factors do not come from it. Though I agree auspice is a bad word to describe it, as governments are indifferent rather than supportive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41193899 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41193899 https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/female-genital-mutilation-fgm/fgm-facts-statistics/ https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-ne...
- chongli 9y ago
  One big point of “Western civilization” ... is rejecting tribalism It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article. It is a way of selecting members based on adherence to a very complex set of tendencies and behaviours; in other words, a Shibboleth. It's been more successful in the recent term because it has succeeded in identifying tribe members independent of ethnic origin. It absolutely does not shy away from rejecting people who fail at performing the Shibboleth and it doesn't care if those people are the direct descendents of tribe members. Exhibit A: the number of people in prison in the West.
  - digitalsigil 9y ago
    > It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article. I was going to say this exact same thing --- that, as far as the simulation understands, FairBot is just a more complicated Shibboleth. To properly perform our Shibboleth is to have loved other people, then develop and understanding of murder/genocide and be given an opportunity to express your feeling about it. If these things don't bother you, then you've failed the Shibboleth and need to be killed (or imprisoned) so that you don't damage our society. And, while our society certainly doesn't implement this perfectly, this is the best you can do. The shibboleth has worked so well because, unless you're a sociopath, it comes out of the root of your being. In my mind, the experience of transcendent love is so powerful that we are willing to reject ANY destruction of it, even if it doesn't directly affect us (i.e. I wouldn't kill a mother because, having a mother myself, I know it would destroy a very power human bond).