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This might be the biggest dichotomy I've yet seen on HN. An opinion piece voted all the way to the top of the front page (with a clickbaity title, might I add),

by Fej 9y ago

This might be the biggest dichotomy I've yet seen on HN. An opinion piece voted all the way to the top of the front page (with a clickbaity title, might I add), yet the top comment soundly debunks the article's arguments. Yeah, this is why everybody clicks on the comments link first.

andreineculau 9y ago
The article itself is click bait since the real meat is to be expected in the follow-up article.
SwellJoe 9y ago
Mike Hearn (the author of the original article) is a bright dude, who is well-known in several tech circles, which may explain the high ranking for the post here on HN. I'm not intending to dismiss him outright; he may have an interesting follow-up. I guess I'm just much more optimistic about the web than he seems to be, and more critical of everything that's come before than he seems to be. I think Mike is about the same age as me, and probably has a similarly long history in tech, so I can't really pull the "hard-earned wisdom and experience" card in this conversation. I think I just disagree with him on this, and that's not a big deal. One of us might be right. (But, I think betting against the web is crazy.)
TeMPOraL 9y ago
To somewhat counter all the negative comments here - I read this article and agree pretty much 100% with every sentence in it. There are probably more people who agree with the post - hence the upvotes.
- dgreensp 9y ago
  Yes, I agreed with the entire article as well. I didn't see anything controversial or exaggerated about it. Edit: Ok, maybe I could have predicted that lines like "HTML 5 is a plague on our industry" would ruffle some feathers. I guess I like a little snark in my criticism.
- jonnytran 9y ago
  This kind of well thought out constructive criticism leads to interesting discussion and eventually improvements, even if I don't necessarily agree with it - hence the upvotes. Dissent should be welcomed, especially when it's in a well-meaning tone.
usr1106 9y ago
We can assume that many HN readers are closely related to Web programming. Either they do it themselves or their wage gets paid because their employers' business depends on Web apps. If the article is right that it is close to impossible to hire a Web developer that understands all Web security issues and knows to mitigate them, it does not come as a surprise that there is fierce criticism to the article. It basically says you are doing a hopeless job and your employers' business model is flawed. I'm not a Web developer, but I find the article very convincing. From what I follow headlines Web programming changes very quickly and the frameworks change all the time. Meaning that smart people are not happy with what is available, writing new stuff. Yet I don't think security has been the primary driver for any new framework. They are still parsing text. So let's see whether the author has any fundamentally different approach in his next post (if anybody remembers to read it) Disclaimer: I work in embedded and our company advertises to be very secure. I know that our security sucks.
- pendar747 9y ago
  The author definitely has valid arguments about web's security but I think the rest of his arguments are all lazy, anecdotal and not accurate. Comparing Google Docs to an old version of Office for example. They are incomparable firstly because they are running on completely different platforms. Office would take a long time to install while Google Docs are available almost instantly, they can be updated almost instantly and secondly include many more benefits that come with being part of the web. I have myself developed GUI application using author's beloved C++ and Qt and I can admit its a far better designed and convenient experience compared to the web, but it's hardly possible to achieve the same amount of flexibility in UI/UX design that is available on the Web. I think the fact that things are changing so fast, standards are badly designed (at least initially) and there are so many inconsistencies are all only because web is a fast moving platform that requires the consensus of many players to happen and move forward. Also the amount of commercial interest and developers working on the web is incomparable to other platforms, hence the fast moving nature.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    The author definitely has valid arguments about web's security but I think the rest of his arguments are all lazy, anecdotal and not accurate. Comparing Google Docs to an old version of Office for example. They are incomparable firstly because they are running on completely different platforms. Office would take a long time to install while Google Docs are available almost instantly, they can be updated almost instantly and secondly include many more benefits that come with being part of the web. But even Google knew not to depend on the universality of web apps on mobile - they have native apps for both Android and iOS. Aren’t we already at a tipping point where most web access is done on mobile devices?
falcolas 9y ago
Being the top comment means only it has more recent upvotes than other top-level comments, not that it has some special meaning that should be taken to have more meaning than the article. Back when they were still displaying points, you could see that the time of the upvote mattered almost as much as the actual upvote itself - meaning the comment with the most upvotes was not always the top comment.
justin1364 9y ago
Maybe this reflects insecurity (in the psychological sense) from the community of people who love the web? That in itself is interesting. Fwiw, long live the web. It's imperfect, but it's open. I'll take chaotic freedom to tight control any day.
- mwcampbell 9y ago
  > I'll take chaotic freedom to tight control FWIW, I'd take tight control if it was in pursuit of humanitarian values, such as accessibility for people with disabilities, rather than a company's bottom line. The chaotic freedom of the Web isn't very good for accessibility. Yes, yes, accessibility is possible, but in practice, very often it doesn't happen. See this rant on HN from a blind friend of mine (yes, the same one I posted elsewhere on the thread, but it drives the point of this comment home): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14580342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14580342

by Fej 9y ago

andreineculau 9y ago

The article itself is click bait since the real meat is to be expected in the follow-up article.

SwellJoe 9y ago

Mike Hearn (the author of the original article) is a bright dude, who is well-known in several tech circles, which may explain the high ranking for the post here on HN. I'm not intending to dismiss him outright; he may have an interesting follow-up. I guess I'm just much more optimistic about the web than he seems to be, and more critical of everything that's come before than he seems to be. I think Mike is about the same age as me, and probably has a similarly long history in tech, so I can't really pull the "hard-earned wisdom and experience" card in this conversation. I think I just disagree with him on this, and that's not a big deal. One of us might be right. (But, I think betting against the web is crazy.)

TeMPOraL 9y ago

To somewhat counter all the negative comments here - I read this article and agree pretty much 100% with every sentence in it. There are probably more people who agree with the post - hence the upvotes.

dgreensp 9y ago
Yes, I agreed with the entire article as well. I didn't see anything controversial or exaggerated about it. Edit: Ok, maybe I could have predicted that lines like "HTML 5 is a plague on our industry" would ruffle some feathers. I guess I like a little snark in my criticism.
jonnytran 9y ago
This kind of well thought out constructive criticism leads to interesting discussion and eventually improvements, even if I don't necessarily agree with it - hence the upvotes. Dissent should be welcomed, especially when it's in a well-meaning tone.

usr1106 9y ago

We can assume that many HN readers are closely related to Web programming. Either they do it themselves or their wage gets paid because their employers' business depends on Web apps. If the article is right that it is close to impossible to hire a Web developer that understands all Web security issues and knows to mitigate them, it does not come as a surprise that there is fierce criticism to the article. It basically says you are doing a hopeless job and your employers' business model is flawed. I'm not a Web developer, but I find the article very convincing. From what I follow headlines Web programming changes very quickly and the frameworks change all the time. Meaning that smart people are not happy with what is available, writing new stuff. Yet I don't think security has been the primary driver for any new framework. They are still parsing text. So let's see whether the author has any fundamentally different approach in his next post (if anybody remembers to read it) Disclaimer: I work in embedded and our company advertises to be very secure. I know that our security sucks.

pendar747 9y ago
The author definitely has valid arguments about web's security but I think the rest of his arguments are all lazy, anecdotal and not accurate. Comparing Google Docs to an old version of Office for example. They are incomparable firstly because they are running on completely different platforms. Office would take a long time to install while Google Docs are available almost instantly, they can be updated almost instantly and secondly include many more benefits that come with being part of the web. I have myself developed GUI application using author's beloved C++ and Qt and I can admit its a far better designed and convenient experience compared to the web, but it's hardly possible to achieve the same amount of flexibility in UI/UX design that is available on the Web. I think the fact that things are changing so fast, standards are badly designed (at least initially) and there are so many inconsistencies are all only because web is a fast moving platform that requires the consensus of many players to happen and move forward. Also the amount of commercial interest and developers working on the web is incomparable to other platforms, hence the fast moving nature.
- scarface74 9y ago
  The author definitely has valid arguments about web's security but I think the rest of his arguments are all lazy, anecdotal and not accurate. Comparing Google Docs to an old version of Office for example. They are incomparable firstly because they are running on completely different platforms. Office would take a long time to install while Google Docs are available almost instantly, they can be updated almost instantly and secondly include many more benefits that come with being part of the web. But even Google knew not to depend on the universality of web apps on mobile - they have native apps for both Android and iOS. Aren’t we already at a tipping point where most web access is done on mobile devices?

falcolas 9y ago

Being the top comment means only it has more recent upvotes than other top-level comments, not that it has some special meaning that should be taken to have more meaning than the article. Back when they were still displaying points, you could see that the time of the upvote mattered almost as much as the actual upvote itself - meaning the comment with the most upvotes was not always the top comment.

justin1364 9y ago

Maybe this reflects insecurity (in the psychological sense) from the community of people who love the web? That in itself is interesting. Fwiw, long live the web. It's imperfect, but it's open. I'll take chaotic freedom to tight control any day.

mwcampbell 9y ago
> I'll take chaotic freedom to tight control FWIW, I'd take tight control if it was in pursuit of humanitarian values, such as accessibility for people with disabilities, rather than a company's bottom line. The chaotic freedom of the Web isn't very good for accessibility. Yes, yes, accessibility is possible, but in practice, very often it doesn't happen. See this rant on HN from a blind friend of mine (yes, the same one I posted elsewhere on the thread, but it drives the point of this comment home): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14580342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14580342