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It's absurd to compare ancient greek "democracy" to modern day democracies. Ancient greece was a slave state which didn't have any notion of human rights. Not o

It's absurd to compare ancient greek "democracy" to modern day democracies. Ancient greece was a slave state which didn't have any notion of human rights. Not only did ancient greece own slaves, they also had votes to kill their own citizens. The most notorious being socrates drinking the hemlock. Ancient greece wasn't a democracy. It was an oligarchy of slave owners.

woodandsteel 9y ago
No, it was a democracy for the relatively small portion of the population that were free males, and authoritarian with respect to the rest. And that example of limited democracy was crucial to leading to our far more general one.
- eighthnate 9y ago
  Yes. That's why I called it more of an oligarchy than a democracy. Modern notions of democracy is so different from the ancient greek conception that it doesn't make much sense to claim they are both democracies.
valuearb 9y ago
It was an example of the tyrant of pure democracy. Democracy can only work if it’s limited by strong individual rights. Your examples are good, but my favorite example was the battle of Arginusae, a massive Athenian victory which directly led to the fall of Athens. In the Peloponnesian War, Spartas army was supreme, but they could never defeat Athens navy. Finally they crushed it at Methymna, and blockaded the remainder, positionihg the Spartan navy to block trade with Athens and starve them. Athens was forced to build a new fleet manned by inexperienced sailors, and appointed 8 strategoi to lead it against the now vastly superior Spartan navy. Using innovative tactics they won a great victory at Arginusae. But immediately after, the Athenian commanders were unable to rescue survivors from their disabled/sink ships due to a sudden storm. The citizens of Athens, joyous at the amazing victory, now turned sour. The assembly voted to execute the generals. After they were executed, the war turned against Athens and many realized the mistake they made killing their best generals, so they brought similar charges against the instigators of the charges against the generals. Pure democracy is a mob at work.
- ue_ 9y ago
  On a similar note, Marcuse noted two things in his essay Repressive Tolerance: - If democracy is truly power to the people, then the people should have any power, including the power to subvert their own democracy. These democratic channels are currently (in Marcuse's 1960s and now) being blocked by use of mass media and the methods of presentation and prevailing orthodoxies in fields from literature to economics. - When democratic means are blocked, they may require apparently un-democratic means to open, as a democracy would have to use those blocked routes in order to unblock them, an extra-democratic method is required.
chewz 9y ago
You are right, its absurd to compare greek "democracy" to modern day democracies. Athenian democracy was better then most modern day democracies. 1) It made use of ostracism - enemies of democracy were excluded from public life (for up to 10 years) in public referendum. 2) It was a direct democracy while modern democracies are representative democracies - which makes them de facto oligarchy of professional political class 3) It balanced citizens rights against duties ie. top tax bracket citizens served in hoplites during the war while lowest class was exempt from military service. Yes Greek democracy excluded women and slaves but Athenians would be amused by the notion that women could be citizens and modern democracies also exclude non-citizens like low paid, migrant workers from democratic process. My point - I am attempting to be sarcastic above - is that democracy is a moving target. Athens set certain imperfect model from which we draw upon for the last 2,4 thousand years. And that if you read detailed accounts of Athenian politics surprisingly a lot of their dilemmas could echo today - human nature I guess.

woodandsteel 9y ago

No, it was a democracy for the relatively small portion of the population that were free males, and authoritarian with respect to the rest. And that example of limited democracy was crucial to leading to our far more general one.

eighthnate 9y ago
Yes. That's why I called it more of an oligarchy than a democracy. Modern notions of democracy is so different from the ancient greek conception that it doesn't make much sense to claim they are both democracies.

valuearb 9y ago

It was an example of the tyrant of pure democracy. Democracy can only work if it’s limited by strong individual rights. Your examples are good, but my favorite example was the battle of Arginusae, a massive Athenian victory which directly led to the fall of Athens. In the Peloponnesian War, Spartas army was supreme, but they could never defeat Athens navy. Finally they crushed it at Methymna, and blockaded the remainder, positionihg the Spartan navy to block trade with Athens and starve them. Athens was forced to build a new fleet manned by inexperienced sailors, and appointed 8 strategoi to lead it against the now vastly superior Spartan navy. Using innovative tactics they won a great victory at Arginusae. But immediately after, the Athenian commanders were unable to rescue survivors from their disabled/sink ships due to a sudden storm. The citizens of Athens, joyous at the amazing victory, now turned sour. The assembly voted to execute the generals. After they were executed, the war turned against Athens and many realized the mistake they made killing their best generals, so they brought similar charges against the instigators of the charges against the generals. Pure democracy is a mob at work.

ue_ 9y ago
On a similar note, Marcuse noted two things in his essay Repressive Tolerance: - If democracy is truly power to the people, then the people should have any power, including the power to subvert their own democracy. These democratic channels are currently (in Marcuse's 1960s and now) being blocked by use of mass media and the methods of presentation and prevailing orthodoxies in fields from literature to economics. - When democratic means are blocked, they may require apparently un-democratic means to open, as a democracy would have to use those blocked routes in order to unblock them, an extra-democratic method is required.

chewz 9y ago

You are right, its absurd to compare greek "democracy" to modern day democracies. Athenian democracy was better then most modern day democracies. 1) It made use of ostracism - enemies of democracy were excluded from public life (for up to 10 years) in public referendum. 2) It was a direct democracy while modern democracies are representative democracies - which makes them de facto oligarchy of professional political class 3) It balanced citizens rights against duties ie. top tax bracket citizens served in hoplites during the war while lowest class was exempt from military service. Yes Greek democracy excluded women and slaves but Athenians would be amused by the notion that women could be citizens and modern democracies also exclude non-citizens like low paid, migrant workers from democratic process. My point - I am attempting to be sarcastic above - is that democracy is a moving target. Athens set certain imperfect model from which we draw upon for the last 2,4 thousand years. And that if you read detailed accounts of Athenian politics surprisingly a lot of their dilemmas could echo today - human nature I guess.