5 ms·

> and have equal rights I'm sorry, what human rights are women lacking now? EDIT: I should clarify, in western democracies and developed eastern countries

KirinDave 9y ago
Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this does more than affect women seeking abortions. Many women with hormonal regulation issues cannot get the care and medication they need because access to medicines which are also birth control is not a right. Largely because of religious objections. Meanwhile men have an unchallenged right to vasectomies. Feel free to correct me, but it appears to be legal and obtainable as a procedure in every state. We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases, but I'll leave that to someone else.
- nilkn 9y ago
  A vasectomy should not be compared directly to an abortion. It should be compared to tubal ligation.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion. But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.
    - deepnotderp 9y ago
      > But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.
      - KirinDave 9y ago
        No. My assertion is that women in many places simply cannot buy many types of health care because they're associated with reproductive needs.
        deepnotderp 9y ago
        But I don't see any evidence of that. They can buy it, just not usually with federal funds.
        KirinDave 9y ago
        You should research this then. I've provided a link in other parts of this thread, please refer to it as the root. Because I really question if you'd know simply by casually inspecting your surroundings.
        deepnotderp 9y ago
        I've read your link and replied to it. It only points to a grand total of three conservative states cutting off federal funding.
    - nilkn 9y ago
      To be completely honest, what you just wrote is far more disruptive to the conversation than what I wrote. The analogy you made was a pretty central part of your post, and it's really disingenuous to compare abortions to vasectomies. They are utterly different procedures. There simply is no analogy to an abortion procedure for men.
- gruez 9y ago
  >Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care wait, what? >many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention. >We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases are you talking about the men or the women in this case?
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention. You could read the paragraph where I point out those drugs have other uses. Women with endomitriosis or PCOS need them and can't get them in many states, living in pain and increased mortality because of moral panic over health care. But even ignoring that, managing when to have children IS a health issue for many women and for their unborn. For example, many women over 40 take birth control because they're concerned about increased rates of birth defects for children with mother's over 40. Your attempt to frame a phenomenally complicated biological process as anything but a health issue is your politically informed opinion.
- dleslie 9y ago
  Are you referring to abortions solely, or also contraceptives, hysterectomies and tubal libations et al? I've heard that it can be difficult to get oral contraceptives, but I don't know what barriers are in the way. Honest question; I am Canadian and am not wholly aware of the state of medical affairs south of the fourty-nine.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    Several states make reproductive health clinics impossible to run via various methods. Legislation is being pushed in Texas to directly outlaw Planned Parenthood even though abortions are a tiny, tiny fraction of their provided procedures over a yearly basis.
- jules 9y ago
  Which localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain hormonal birth control but have unchallenged access to vasectomies?
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    A great deal of information and links to many credible stories is available here. The efforts are systemic: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-access-health-care/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-a...
    - jules 9y ago
      That article is about taxpayer funded health care. Are vasectomies taxpayer funded in these places?
      - KirinDave 9y ago
        They are subsidized, yes.
        deepnotderp 9y ago
        So is tubal ligation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490665/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490665/
        KirinDave 9y ago
        So what? Women have different health care requirements that in some cases have hormonal treatment and those are both under-subsidized and over-stigmatized because religious people of all stripes think it's okay to override women's rights for the sake of their religion. Tubal ligation doesn't solve a thing for PCOS and Endomitriosis sufferers. It doesn't solve anything for people with thyroid issues. But these women get substandard or no treatment in the efforts to restrict access to birth control. But hey, the far less reliable tubal ligation is covered and that makes it fine, because I mentioned casually that men's reproductive care is almost never on the table. Folks were terribly activist about body autonomy when it was medical marijuana on the table. But you mention "oh also this is birth control" and suddenly questions about why governments should be subsidizing medical care for poor people crop up like this isn't a well studied and decades old public health issue. Children of parents with access to pre-natal care cost less to society and offer more than those without, and this is reflected in the health outcomes of planned vs unplanned children.
- deepnotderp 9y ago
  > Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care No one does. Overall in the US, greater amounts are spent on/by women (https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/2010AgeandGenderHighlights.pdf https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta...). Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone (although searching up "feminist opposition to male birth control" brings up some interesting hits: https://www.google.com/search?q=feminist+opposition+to+male+birth+control&oq=MALE+Birth+control+oppositio&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0i22i30k1.12334.13334.0.14043.10.10.0.0.0.0.152.809.8j2.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.805...0.0.9e8f53_sfMQ https://www.google.com/search?q=feminist+opposition+to+male+...) I'm pretty sure female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either. About sexual assault cases and lack of rights pertaining to due process, I would suggest that the evidence points to the opposite: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/laura-kipniss-endless-trial-by-title-ix https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/laura-kipniss-endle... https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-bad-science-behind-campus-response-to-sexual-assault/539211/?utm_source=twb https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-ba...
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? > female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either. They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. > About sexual assault cases and lack of rights pertaining to due process, I would suggest that the evidence points to the opposite: Thanks for providing a link to a broad survey of data and not a cherry picked article.
    - deepnotderp 9y ago
      > > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? They don't have the option of birth control, what's confusing about that? > They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. As far as I understand such clinics are cut off from federal/state funding, in line with the Hyde amendment, and in only three states, right? I'm not sure how this qualifies as systematic oppression of women.
- thevardanian 9y ago
  How does this have anything to do with the workplace? While I am with on women getting more reproductive attention, I just don't see how it's related. Women have all the rights in regards to getting a job, and advancing their careers. Also I don't think hysterectomies/"getting the tubes tied" are illegal or even controversial, which would be a far more similar comparison to vasectomies.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    Why is this question directed at me? I'm answering a question. But to answer your question, horrible maternity and paternity leave policies come to mind.

KirinDave 9y ago

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this does more than affect women seeking abortions. Many women with hormonal regulation issues cannot get the care and medication they need because access to medicines which are also birth control is not a right. Largely because of religious objections. Meanwhile men have an unchallenged right to vasectomies. Feel free to correct me, but it appears to be legal and obtainable as a procedure in every state. We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases, but I'll leave that to someone else.

nilkn 9y ago
A vasectomy should not be compared directly to an abortion. It should be compared to tubal ligation.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion. But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.
  - deepnotderp 9y ago
    > But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      No. My assertion is that women in many places simply cannot buy many types of health care because they're associated with reproductive needs.
      - deepnotderp 9y ago
        But I don't see any evidence of that. They can buy it, just not usually with federal funds.
        KirinDave 9y ago
        You should research this then. I've provided a link in other parts of this thread, please refer to it as the root. Because I really question if you'd know simply by casually inspecting your surroundings.
        deepnotderp 9y ago
        I've read your link and replied to it. It only points to a grand total of three conservative states cutting off federal funding.
  - nilkn 9y ago
    To be completely honest, what you just wrote is far more disruptive to the conversation than what I wrote. The analogy you made was a pretty central part of your post, and it's really disingenuous to compare abortions to vasectomies. They are utterly different procedures. There simply is no analogy to an abortion procedure for men.
gruez 9y ago
>Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care wait, what? >many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention. >We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases are you talking about the men or the women in this case?
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention. You could read the paragraph where I point out those drugs have other uses. Women with endomitriosis or PCOS need them and can't get them in many states, living in pain and increased mortality because of moral panic over health care. But even ignoring that, managing when to have children IS a health issue for many women and for their unborn. For example, many women over 40 take birth control because they're concerned about increased rates of birth defects for children with mother's over 40. Your attempt to frame a phenomenally complicated biological process as anything but a health issue is your politically informed opinion.
dleslie 9y ago
Are you referring to abortions solely, or also contraceptives, hysterectomies and tubal libations et al? I've heard that it can be difficult to get oral contraceptives, but I don't know what barriers are in the way. Honest question; I am Canadian and am not wholly aware of the state of medical affairs south of the fourty-nine.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Several states make reproductive health clinics impossible to run via various methods. Legislation is being pushed in Texas to directly outlaw Planned Parenthood even though abortions are a tiny, tiny fraction of their provided procedures over a yearly basis.
jules 9y ago
Which localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain hormonal birth control but have unchallenged access to vasectomies?
- KirinDave 9y ago
  A great deal of information and links to many credible stories is available here. The efforts are systemic: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-access-health-care/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-a...
  - jules 9y ago
    That article is about taxpayer funded health care. Are vasectomies taxpayer funded in these places?
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      They are subsidized, yes.
      - deepnotderp 9y ago
        So is tubal ligation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490665/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490665/
        KirinDave 9y ago
        So what? Women have different health care requirements that in some cases have hormonal treatment and those are both under-subsidized and over-stigmatized because religious people of all stripes think it's okay to override women's rights for the sake of their religion. Tubal ligation doesn't solve a thing for PCOS and Endomitriosis sufferers. It doesn't solve anything for people with thyroid issues. But these women get substandard or no treatment in the efforts to restrict access to birth control. But hey, the far less reliable tubal ligation is covered and that makes it fine, because I mentioned casually that men's reproductive care is almost never on the table. Folks were terribly activist about body autonomy when it was medical marijuana on the table. But you mention "oh also this is birth control" and suddenly questions about why governments should be subsidizing medical care for poor people crop up like this isn't a well studied and decades old public health issue. Children of parents with access to pre-natal care cost less to society and offer more than those without, and this is reflected in the health outcomes of planned vs unplanned children.
deepnotderp 9y ago
> Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care No one does. Overall in the US, greater amounts are spent on/by women (https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/2010AgeandGenderHighlights.pdf https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta...). Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone (although searching up "feminist opposition to male birth control" brings up some interesting hits: https://www.google.com/search?q=feminist+opposition+to+male+birth+control&oq=MALE+Birth+control+oppositio&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0i22i30k1.12334.13334.0.14043.10.10.0.0.0.0.152.809.8j2.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.805...0.0.9e8f53_sfMQ https://www.google.com/search?q=feminist+opposition+to+male+...) I'm pretty sure female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either. About sexual assault cases and lack of rights pertaining to due process, I would suggest that the evidence points to the opposite: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/laura-kipniss-endless-trial-by-title-ix https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/laura-kipniss-endle... https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-bad-science-behind-campus-response-to-sexual-assault/539211/?utm_source=twb https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-ba...
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? > female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either. They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. > About sexual assault cases and lack of rights pertaining to due process, I would suggest that the evidence points to the opposite: Thanks for providing a link to a broad survey of data and not a cherry picked article.
  - deepnotderp 9y ago
    > > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? They don't have the option of birth control, what's confusing about that? > They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. As far as I understand such clinics are cut off from federal/state funding, in line with the Hyde amendment, and in only three states, right? I'm not sure how this qualifies as systematic oppression of women.
thevardanian 9y ago
How does this have anything to do with the workplace? While I am with on women getting more reproductive attention, I just don't see how it's related. Women have all the rights in regards to getting a job, and advancing their careers. Also I don't think hysterectomies/"getting the tubes tied" are illegal or even controversial, which would be a far more similar comparison to vasectomies.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Why is this question directed at me? I'm answering a question. But to answer your question, horrible maternity and paternity leave policies come to mind.