7 ms·

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all b

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's logically more difficult to find qualified female coders because there are less of them applying for positions. REQUIRING a certain benchmark of females to be hired each month or year, when HR is picking from a much smaller candidate pool, is going to result in hiring potentially less qualified individuals. That could actually cause a greater gender bias if women are being hired to hit a metric but potentially performing at a lower quality than their male counterparts. I say "potentially" because obviously there are a ton of great female coders, but there are a lot of shoddy ones too. Same with men. As an example: You have ten applicants for one position. 2 are female, 8 are male. Just for fun, lets say "33% of all programmers, male and female, produce good code and have a qualifying resume". The chances that you will have a qualified male candidate are going to be greater based on those two facts alone. If you need to hit a 50% men/50% women hiring metric, you're taking a gamble on the work quality of women hired. ~BUT~: WE HAVE TO OFFER STRONGER INCENTIVES FOR WOMEN IN TECH IN ORDER FOR THE PLAYING FIELD TO BE LEVELED. Future female coders aren't going to feel inspired or motivated to enter a workforce that's dominated by men. The solution sometimes looks faulty when viewed on a case-by-case basis, but we need to offer an olive branch in the form of better job placement opportunities until women are inspired to pursue tech and have equal rights and job prospects.

gambiting 9y ago
I brought it up before, I will bring it up now - my sister was going to go into CS until her career adviser(also a woman) told her she's made a great choice since someone will have to hire her because she is a woman. She changed her course choices the next day. I'm all 100% for giving everyone an equal chance. I am not for hiring because someone is <insert underrepresented group here>.
- ooopsnevermind 9y ago
  "Hiring because someone is <insert underrepresented group here>" isn't the goal, IMO, and I think it sounds like your sister's career advisor did her a disservice by describing it that way. I also don't think her career advisor's POV is true, FWIW. As a woman in STEM, I don't want someone to hire me just because I'm a woman. I want someone to 1) think I'm awesome at what I do, and 2) by the way I happen to be a woman. But I also think it's true that if 2) is a fact about you, it's harder for you to prove 1) than it would be otherwise, and that's not right. My belief is that the reason for encouraging diversity initiatives are that there are lots of talented women (and other minority groups) out there who are being overlooked but deserve to get noticed and hired, and the goal is always to surface talented people to hire, women or otherwise.
  - fsociety 9y ago
    Yes but is the issue here solved by diversity hiring i.e. doing whatever it takes to hire more women or is the issue here solved by redefining how the workplace operates and making it something that enables women to succeed and enjoy the work without being highly aggressive? Actually it isn't just about women in software development, men should be included too. Plenty of men in software development are atypical compared to other men. I'm a man in STEM - weird to put it that way - but I have a lot of issues in dealing with hyper aggressive people in the workplace. Unfortunately I've found that sometimes the only way to be heard in the workplace is to be aggressive and repeat myself over and over again. Being aggressive in the workplace has resulted in me, against a company full of people who don't appreciate methodical software development, introducing less bugs, having more time to work with customer issues, and spending more time on testing and maintenance. Admittedly, it's very emotionally and mentally fatiguing. As I write this I'm thinking about nurses and how insanely aggressive you have to be in a hospital, which is a women dominated field. I suppose that the difference is that the work is incredibly high-impact whereas it's easy in software development to feel that your work is for nothing because often it is. I don't know what the solution is, or if the question I'm asking is the right question, but I'm fairly certain that the current practice of diversity hiring doesn't help the issue but instead hurts it more. Same thing with this unconscious bias training. Now, I do strongly believe that encouraging women to consider STEM in school is a very good idea and that it opens a lot of doors that otherwise may of not been open. I believe this, in the long-term, is a giant step in the right direction because of cultural pressures and norms for people at a very young age.
deepnotderp 9y ago
> and have equal rights I'm sorry, what human rights are women lacking now? EDIT: I should clarify, in western democracies and developed eastern countries
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this does more than affect women seeking abortions. Many women with hormonal regulation issues cannot get the care and medication they need because access to medicines which are also birth control is not a right. Largely because of religious objections. Meanwhile men have an unchallenged right to vasectomies. Feel free to correct me, but it appears to be legal and obtainable as a procedure in every state. We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases, but I'll leave that to someone else.
  - nilkn 9y ago
    A vasectomy should not be compared directly to an abortion. It should be compared to tubal ligation.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion. But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.
      - deepnotderp 9y ago
        > But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.
CyberDildonics 9y ago
No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best people so they can do the best work and all the labels in between don't mean shit. If that ends up being more women or any other group that is a minority in tech it makes a tiny difference compared to being able to really achieve something meaningful.
- cwackerfuss 9y ago
  I'm actually saying basically same thing in the middle part of my response. But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases and tweak the dials accordingly.
  - CyberDildonics 9y ago
    > But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases Getting closer to a meritocracy implies weeding out cognitive biases already.
  - SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
    Your post actually argued we should introduce cognitive biases, and hire unequally. Framing doing that as supporting gender equality is the Orwellian doublespeak that people are starting to object to -- you can support diversity without supporting hiring on the basis of race, gender, etc.
- eropple 9y ago
  No meritocracy exists in tech at any level and claims to the contrary so strangely come predicated on a level of social and cultural privilege that, for some shocking reason, those without that very seriously considered and measured (stop laughing) merit so often seem to lack.
thevardanian 9y ago
Slowly but surely we will realize that we are hitting a wall, and that no matter how far we push, or how much we incentivize, things will not change. The whole gender equality movement (and I do want to isolate this from all other identity movements) will eventually have to face the reality of women's choice, and what they choose perhaps will not be a satisfactory answer/direction the proponents of this ideology wish to see. Norwegian countries are by far more "advanced" in their implementation and encouragement of "gender equality" at the work place, but they've eventually have had to come to terms with certain facts that betrays the whole "gender equality" narrative. You can't force women to choose. Not to mention why isn't there a push for more women working trade jobs like construction, plumbing, underwater wielding, etc. that in itself betrays the entire "gender equality" narrative. There's a Norwegian documentary exploring this subject called "The Gender Equality Paradox" https://vimeo.com/19707588 https://vimeo.com/19707588. It's a good documentary and suggest people view it.
- reuleaux 9y ago
  "Not to mention why isn't there a push for more women working trade jobs like construction, plumbing, underwater wielding, etc. that in itself betrays the entire "gender equality" narrative." This same comment is made every single time there's a discussion of gender equality in tech, and when examined betrays the entire "anti gender equality" narrative. People are in fact pushing for women in every single one of the fields you mentioned: Construction: http://www.nawic.org/nawic/NFSFScholarships.asp http://www.nawic.org/nawic/NFSFScholarships.asp Plumbing: https://www.aspe.org/WOA https://www.aspe.org/WOA Welding: https://app.aws.org/foundation/scholarships/air_products https://app.aws.org/foundation/scholarships/air_products The next point that's brought up is "well then why aren't people pushing for more men in female dominated industries." To which the answer is, they are, and have been for a long time: http://www.aamn.org/about-us/scholarships http://www.aamn.org/about-us/scholarships It seems fishy to me when people are willing to speak out against diversity in tech without bothering to research any part of their argument.
  - thevardanian 9y ago
    That wasn't even the point of my whole argument. All I'm saying is that perhaps women don't want those jobs in the first place. Then what will you do? I mean that is the whole assumption of this argument right? That women want these jobs, but are unable to participate in them because of discrimination. What if that assumption is wrong? You can push for diversity all you want, but what if that's just not how people behave? Again watch the documentary I think Norwegian society is a far better a case study for Gender issues than anywhere else on the planet.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jseliger 9y ago
It can't just be a boys club I'm don't think that anyone prominent or in the mainstream is arguing that it should be.

gambiting 9y ago

I brought it up before, I will bring it up now - my sister was going to go into CS until her career adviser(also a woman) told her she's made a great choice since someone will have to hire her because she is a woman. She changed her course choices the next day. I'm all 100% for giving everyone an equal chance. I am not for hiring because someone is <insert underrepresented group here>.

ooopsnevermind 9y ago
"Hiring because someone is <insert underrepresented group here>" isn't the goal, IMO, and I think it sounds like your sister's career advisor did her a disservice by describing it that way. I also don't think her career advisor's POV is true, FWIW. As a woman in STEM, I don't want someone to hire me just because I'm a woman. I want someone to 1) think I'm awesome at what I do, and 2) by the way I happen to be a woman. But I also think it's true that if 2) is a fact about you, it's harder for you to prove 1) than it would be otherwise, and that's not right. My belief is that the reason for encouraging diversity initiatives are that there are lots of talented women (and other minority groups) out there who are being overlooked but deserve to get noticed and hired, and the goal is always to surface talented people to hire, women or otherwise.
- fsociety 9y ago
  Yes but is the issue here solved by diversity hiring i.e. doing whatever it takes to hire more women or is the issue here solved by redefining how the workplace operates and making it something that enables women to succeed and enjoy the work without being highly aggressive? Actually it isn't just about women in software development, men should be included too. Plenty of men in software development are atypical compared to other men. I'm a man in STEM - weird to put it that way - but I have a lot of issues in dealing with hyper aggressive people in the workplace. Unfortunately I've found that sometimes the only way to be heard in the workplace is to be aggressive and repeat myself over and over again. Being aggressive in the workplace has resulted in me, against a company full of people who don't appreciate methodical software development, introducing less bugs, having more time to work with customer issues, and spending more time on testing and maintenance. Admittedly, it's very emotionally and mentally fatiguing. As I write this I'm thinking about nurses and how insanely aggressive you have to be in a hospital, which is a women dominated field. I suppose that the difference is that the work is incredibly high-impact whereas it's easy in software development to feel that your work is for nothing because often it is. I don't know what the solution is, or if the question I'm asking is the right question, but I'm fairly certain that the current practice of diversity hiring doesn't help the issue but instead hurts it more. Same thing with this unconscious bias training. Now, I do strongly believe that encouraging women to consider STEM in school is a very good idea and that it opens a lot of doors that otherwise may of not been open. I believe this, in the long-term, is a giant step in the right direction because of cultural pressures and norms for people at a very young age.

deepnotderp 9y ago

> and have equal rights I'm sorry, what human rights are women lacking now? EDIT: I should clarify, in western democracies and developed eastern countries

KirinDave 9y ago
Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this does more than affect women seeking abortions. Many women with hormonal regulation issues cannot get the care and medication they need because access to medicines which are also birth control is not a right. Largely because of religious objections. Meanwhile men have an unchallenged right to vasectomies. Feel free to correct me, but it appears to be legal and obtainable as a procedure in every state. We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases, but I'll leave that to someone else.
- nilkn 9y ago
  A vasectomy should not be compared directly to an abortion. It should be compared to tubal ligation.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion. But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.
    - deepnotderp 9y ago
      > But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.

CyberDildonics 9y ago

No one is 'regressing' at the idea of diversity in tech. Framing it that way is a huge part of the problem and phenomenally disingenuous and simplistic. The divide is really whether you want force extra diversity at the expense of a meritocracy or if you want a meritocracy. With all the 'more women' vs. 'boys club' nonsense, a person not thinking critically could forget that some people want to work with the best people so they can do the best work and all the labels in between don't mean shit. If that ends up being more women or any other group that is a minority in tech it makes a tiny difference compared to being able to really achieve something meaningful.

cwackerfuss 9y ago
I'm actually saying basically same thing in the middle part of my response. But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases and tweak the dials accordingly.
- CyberDildonics 9y ago
  > But meritocracies sometimes need to take a hard look in the mirror and admit cognitive biases Getting closer to a meritocracy implies weeding out cognitive biases already.
- SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
  Your post actually argued we should introduce cognitive biases, and hire unequally. Framing doing that as supporting gender equality is the Orwellian doublespeak that people are starting to object to -- you can support diversity without supporting hiring on the basis of race, gender, etc.
eropple 9y ago
No meritocracy exists in tech at any level and claims to the contrary so strangely come predicated on a level of social and cultural privilege that, for some shocking reason, those without that very seriously considered and measured (stop laughing) merit so often seem to lack.

thevardanian 9y ago

Slowly but surely we will realize that we are hitting a wall, and that no matter how far we push, or how much we incentivize, things will not change. The whole gender equality movement (and I do want to isolate this from all other identity movements) will eventually have to face the reality of women's choice, and what they choose perhaps will not be a satisfactory answer/direction the proponents of this ideology wish to see. Norwegian countries are by far more "advanced" in their implementation and encouragement of "gender equality" at the work place, but they've eventually have had to come to terms with certain facts that betrays the whole "gender equality" narrative. You can't force women to choose. Not to mention why isn't there a push for more women working trade jobs like construction, plumbing, underwater wielding, etc. that in itself betrays the entire "gender equality" narrative. There's a Norwegian documentary exploring this subject called "The Gender Equality Paradox" https://vimeo.com/19707588 https://vimeo.com/19707588. It's a good documentary and suggest people view it.

reuleaux 9y ago
"Not to mention why isn't there a push for more women working trade jobs like construction, plumbing, underwater wielding, etc. that in itself betrays the entire "gender equality" narrative." This same comment is made every single time there's a discussion of gender equality in tech, and when examined betrays the entire "anti gender equality" narrative. People are in fact pushing for women in every single one of the fields you mentioned: Construction: http://www.nawic.org/nawic/NFSFScholarships.asp http://www.nawic.org/nawic/NFSFScholarships.asp Plumbing: https://www.aspe.org/WOA https://www.aspe.org/WOA Welding: https://app.aws.org/foundation/scholarships/air_products https://app.aws.org/foundation/scholarships/air_products The next point that's brought up is "well then why aren't people pushing for more men in female dominated industries." To which the answer is, they are, and have been for a long time: http://www.aamn.org/about-us/scholarships http://www.aamn.org/about-us/scholarships It seems fishy to me when people are willing to speak out against diversity in tech without bothering to research any part of their argument.
- thevardanian 9y ago
  That wasn't even the point of my whole argument. All I'm saying is that perhaps women don't want those jobs in the first place. Then what will you do? I mean that is the whole assumption of this argument right? That women want these jobs, but are unable to participate in them because of discrimination. What if that assumption is wrong? You can push for diversity all you want, but what if that's just not how people behave? Again watch the documentary I think Norwegian society is a far better a case study for Gender issues than anywhere else on the planet.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jseliger 9y ago

It can't just be a boys club I'm don't think that anyone prominent or in the mainstream is arguing that it should be.