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It would be useful, at least on HN, to distinguish small businesses like a new pizzeria from what most of us call a startup; i.e. a tech company that's probably

by vonnik 9y ago

It would be useful, at least on HN, to distinguish small businesses like a new pizzeria from what most of us call a startup; i.e. a tech company that's probably building software to solve a problem and scale. That aside, I would point out that startups and small businesses are no match for the incumbents when it comes to lobbying and regulation. The principle of "concentrated benefit, diffuse harm" applies, especially when the power is already concentrated in a corporation looking to weaken future rivals. Few politicians and policy people on either side of the aisle understand tech, startups, their financing or incentives, and vast swaths of the tech sector are remarkably disengaged from educating those decision-makers even as Washington and the state capitols pass laws that affect their interests. Immigration restrictions, for example, will have an enormous and damaging effect on US tech. How many people do you know have actually spoken with their senator about it?

dang 9y ago
Ok, we replaced 'startup' with 'new business' in the title above.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> It would be useful, at least on HN, to distinguish small businesses like a new pizzeria from what most of us call a startup A new, small business _is_ a startup though[1]. Just that our current trade policy dictates most small businesses are service-oriented doesn't mean other small businesses are somehow different in purpose. > That aside, I would point out that startups and small businesses are no match for the incumbents when it comes to lobbying and regulation. > Immigration restrictions, for example, will have an enormous and damaging effect on US tech. Legislation finds a balance between business development and quality of life for its people. For decades, legislation has been skewed in big business's favor, leading to an incredible spike in income and wealth inequality. While immigration reform isn't what's best for business, it is in reaction to a growing need to help our middle class again. Lobbying can only work so much when widespread dissatisfaction in our government and economy leads to populist uprisings. [1] http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/startup.asp http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/startup.asp
- sokoloff 9y ago
  In this community in particular, startup is more commonly associated with the meaning in this essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html (I'm not arguing that you're wrong; I'm citing the reference that explains the confusion.)
- vonnik 9y ago
  We have a semantic disagreement. I'm saying startup means something different to people in SV and on HN than pizzeria or local accounting firm. A better term for those is SMB: small and middle size business. And for startup, we reserve the idea that it is an organization in search of a business model that intends to grow very quickly. Neither is true of most SMBs. They are copying well-known business models and content with not scaling. > Legislation finds a balance between business development and quality of life for its people. This is a naive view of legislation, if only because there are many more interest groups than "population" and "big business". Legislation does not find a balance. It is the product of a complex process whose results are unpredictable, and it is heavily influenced by both the permanent bureaucracy of the state, re-election-seeking lawmakers, and all of their donors. Sure, big business is one of the donors, but money does not map directly to votes. > For decades, legislation has been skewed in big business's favor, leading to an incredible spike in income and wealth inequality. While immigration reform isn't what's best for business, it is in reaction to a growing need to help our middle class again. Immigration benefits many SMBs and society as a whole, including the communities that wouldn't have doctors if it weren't for immigrants. Big business is not the driving force behind encouraging immigration -- it's a cross class, cross-sector issue. That said, when economies go wrong for other reasons, marginalized voters tend to blame immigrants for lack of a better scapegoat. Even if you accept that immigrants are the cause of citizen's being out of work in America, which I don't, no one thinks that they're taking middle class jobs. The immigrants vilified in the news fill working class and service class roles in construction, cleaning, ag and food service. These are actually jobs that US citizens tend to avoid. But they like blaming fictional brown people when Fox news stokes the flames.
lkrubner 9y ago
It would be useful, at least on HN, to distinguish small businesses like a new pizzeria from what most of us call a startup; i.e. a tech company that's probably building software to solve a problem and scale. That would assume the conclusion. As a thought experiment, imagine a world in which the number of startups is growing. In that world, you can imagine that every new pizzeria is going to grow into the next PizzaHut or Dominos. That is every tiny little new retail store might be a giant 10 years from now. It is from the frothy, primordial soup of little mom and pop shops that new giants emerge. I don't have time to make an attempt at making a list, but 2 examples off the top of my head: both McDonalds and Barnes & Noble were small family businesses, for decades, before new management took over and found a way to turn them into giants.
tlb 9y ago
Every one of those companies is someone's dream. Don't dismiss them for not being tech. Domino's Pizza ($2.5B revenue) was once one of those new pizzerias that you wouldn't call a startup (read the History section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino%27s_Pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino%27s_Pizza).
- Alex3917 9y ago
  What makes something a startup though is if it's arbitraging some temporary economic disequilibrium. How big the business ultimately becomes is unrelated to whether or not it would qualify as a startup.
  - tlb 9y ago
    Every business is arbitraging some temporary economic disequilibrium. Let's avoid redefining things and stick with PG's definition of a startup: http://paulgraham.com/growth.html http://paulgraham.com/growth.html
- WalterSear 9y ago
  I disagree. The same mentality is why universities graduate more students in the visual and performing arts than computer science, math, and chemical engineering combined(1). It's not enough to let people follow their dreams, if their dreams lead most of them off a cliff. You have to either catch them when they fall, or help them find better dreams. (1) http://www.chronicle.com/article/Tuning-In-to-Dropping-Out/130967 http://www.chronicle.com/article/Tuning-In-to-Dropping-Out/1...
  - darpa_escapee 9y ago
    I can't speak for everyone and I'm ignorant of other industries, but friends that have visual arts degrees are having no problem career-wise. Most of them work in media and advertising where they make a great living.
    - sparrish 9y ago

by vonnik 9y ago

dang 9y ago

Ok, we replaced 'startup' with 'new business' in the title above.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

> It would be useful, at least on HN, to distinguish small businesses like a new pizzeria from what most of us call a startup A new, small business _is_ a startup though[1]. Just that our current trade policy dictates most small businesses are service-oriented doesn't mean other small businesses are somehow different in purpose. > That aside, I would point out that startups and small businesses are no match for the incumbents when it comes to lobbying and regulation. > Immigration restrictions, for example, will have an enormous and damaging effect on US tech. Legislation finds a balance between business development and quality of life for its people. For decades, legislation has been skewed in big business's favor, leading to an incredible spike in income and wealth inequality. While immigration reform isn't what's best for business, it is in reaction to a growing need to help our middle class again. Lobbying can only work so much when widespread dissatisfaction in our government and economy leads to populist uprisings. [1] http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/startup.asp http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/startup.asp

sokoloff 9y ago
In this community in particular, startup is more commonly associated with the meaning in this essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html (I'm not arguing that you're wrong; I'm citing the reference that explains the confusion.)
vonnik 9y ago
We have a semantic disagreement. I'm saying startup means something different to people in SV and on HN than pizzeria or local accounting firm. A better term for those is SMB: small and middle size business. And for startup, we reserve the idea that it is an organization in search of a business model that intends to grow very quickly. Neither is true of most SMBs. They are copying well-known business models and content with not scaling. > Legislation finds a balance between business development and quality of life for its people. This is a naive view of legislation, if only because there are many more interest groups than "population" and "big business". Legislation does not find a balance. It is the product of a complex process whose results are unpredictable, and it is heavily influenced by both the permanent bureaucracy of the state, re-election-seeking lawmakers, and all of their donors. Sure, big business is one of the donors, but money does not map directly to votes. > For decades, legislation has been skewed in big business's favor, leading to an incredible spike in income and wealth inequality. While immigration reform isn't what's best for business, it is in reaction to a growing need to help our middle class again. Immigration benefits many SMBs and society as a whole, including the communities that wouldn't have doctors if it weren't for immigrants. Big business is not the driving force behind encouraging immigration -- it's a cross class, cross-sector issue. That said, when economies go wrong for other reasons, marginalized voters tend to blame immigrants for lack of a better scapegoat. Even if you accept that immigrants are the cause of citizen's being out of work in America, which I don't, no one thinks that they're taking middle class jobs. The immigrants vilified in the news fill working class and service class roles in construction, cleaning, ag and food service. These are actually jobs that US citizens tend to avoid. But they like blaming fictional brown people when Fox news stokes the flames.

lkrubner 9y ago

It would be useful, at least on HN, to distinguish small businesses like a new pizzeria from what most of us call a startup; i.e. a tech company that's probably building software to solve a problem and scale. That would assume the conclusion. As a thought experiment, imagine a world in which the number of startups is growing. In that world, you can imagine that every new pizzeria is going to grow into the next PizzaHut or Dominos. That is every tiny little new retail store might be a giant 10 years from now. It is from the frothy, primordial soup of little mom and pop shops that new giants emerge. I don't have time to make an attempt at making a list, but 2 examples off the top of my head: both McDonalds and Barnes & Noble were small family businesses, for decades, before new management took over and found a way to turn them into giants.

tlb 9y ago

Every one of those companies is someone's dream. Don't dismiss them for not being tech. Domino's Pizza ($2.5B revenue) was once one of those new pizzerias that you wouldn't call a startup (read the History section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino%27s_Pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino%27s_Pizza).

Alex3917 9y ago
What makes something a startup though is if it's arbitraging some temporary economic disequilibrium. How big the business ultimately becomes is unrelated to whether or not it would qualify as a startup.
- tlb 9y ago
  Every business is arbitraging some temporary economic disequilibrium. Let's avoid redefining things and stick with PG's definition of a startup: http://paulgraham.com/growth.html http://paulgraham.com/growth.html
WalterSear 9y ago
I disagree. The same mentality is why universities graduate more students in the visual and performing arts than computer science, math, and chemical engineering combined(1). It's not enough to let people follow their dreams, if their dreams lead most of them off a cliff. You have to either catch them when they fall, or help them find better dreams. (1) http://www.chronicle.com/article/Tuning-In-to-Dropping-Out/130967 http://www.chronicle.com/article/Tuning-In-to-Dropping-Out/1...
- darpa_escapee 9y ago
  I can't speak for everyone and I'm ignorant of other industries, but friends that have visual arts degrees are having no problem career-wise. Most of them work in media and advertising where they make a great living.
  - sparrish 9y ago