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Actually there are quite a few legal applications that are well-served by irreversible internet cash. Things like porn, sex toys, gambling in many jurisdiction

by aianus 9y ago

Actually there are quite a few legal applications that are well-served by irreversible internet cash. Things like porn, sex toys, gambling in many jurisdictions, selling expensive items like gold bars or cash online, selling cross-border to sketchy areas like Nigeria or Romania, etc. Traditional reversible payment methods are very expensive or unavailable for these applications because the chargeback rates are off the charts.

prostoalex 9y ago
> selling expensive items like gold bars or cash online So as a consumer I finally have the opportunity to buy an expensive item over the Internet, get swindled by an unscrupulous seller sending me an empty box (if anything), and have absolutely no recourse? Is that the value proposition here?
- aianus 9y ago
  Yes, you have an additional opportunity. You don't have to use it if you're not comfortable with the seller or the chance of being swindled. However, reputation systems seem to work alright, as evidenced by silk road where you really had no recourse but orders did come through. You could also use an escrow service.
  - jmcqk6 9y ago
    Not the commenter you're replying to, but I have to add this. I'm sure there's been a lot of analysis done with regards to the actual amount of fraud on Silk Road (and it's various incarnations and similar services), right? There's no way that criminals with even lower oversight behave better. The idea that you could have an environment where you lack the fraud protections you have in other environments leads to lower fraud rates is absurd, and would require a lot of evidence to demonstrate. An appeal to reputation systems doesn't cut it.
    - aianus 9y ago
      > There's no way that criminals with even lower oversight behave better. There are no bigger criminals with lower oversight than anonymous drug sellers on silk road, and yet most people did get their orders. That was my point. > The idea that you could have an environment where you lack the fraud protections you have in other environments leads to lower fraud rates is absurd It's not absurd at all. For example, if you are a legitimate gold seller and you accept credit cards orders with shipping addresses in Romania you will get destroyed by fraud from buyers. An alternate system where payments are made in Bitcoin results in zero buyer fraud and a reputation system a la Silk Road (plus the ability to sue the non-anonymous seller in court) can reduce the potential for seller fraud to a point where it's worth taking the risk to save X% on the price of your gold.

by aianus 9y ago

prostoalex 9y ago

> selling expensive items like gold bars or cash online So as a consumer I finally have the opportunity to buy an expensive item over the Internet, get swindled by an unscrupulous seller sending me an empty box (if anything), and have absolutely no recourse? Is that the value proposition here?

aianus 9y ago
Yes, you have an additional opportunity. You don't have to use it if you're not comfortable with the seller or the chance of being swindled. However, reputation systems seem to work alright, as evidenced by silk road where you really had no recourse but orders did come through. You could also use an escrow service.
- jmcqk6 9y ago
  Not the commenter you're replying to, but I have to add this. I'm sure there's been a lot of analysis done with regards to the actual amount of fraud on Silk Road (and it's various incarnations and similar services), right? There's no way that criminals with even lower oversight behave better. The idea that you could have an environment where you lack the fraud protections you have in other environments leads to lower fraud rates is absurd, and would require a lot of evidence to demonstrate. An appeal to reputation systems doesn't cut it.
  - aianus 9y ago
    > There's no way that criminals with even lower oversight behave better. There are no bigger criminals with lower oversight than anonymous drug sellers on silk road, and yet most people did get their orders. That was my point. > The idea that you could have an environment where you lack the fraud protections you have in other environments leads to lower fraud rates is absurd It's not absurd at all. For example, if you are a legitimate gold seller and you accept credit cards orders with shipping addresses in Romania you will get destroyed by fraud from buyers. An alternate system where payments are made in Bitcoin results in zero buyer fraud and a reputation system a la Silk Road (plus the ability to sue the non-anonymous seller in court) can reduce the potential for seller fraud to a point where it's worth taking the risk to save X% on the price of your gold.