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There is still no legitimate use of bitcoin beyond niche markets and speculation. Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of

There is still no legitimate use of bitcoin beyond niche markets and speculation. Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of money transfer. It is and has always been a criminal and launderer toy. I am very excited by progress in Ethereum and see it as a model for a better way forward. Though I do not trust its maintainers and community to build a secure and reliable system. There have been far to many preventable losses due to their amateur efforts. The future of crypto is exciting. The present currencies are the Diamond Rios and Creative Nomads of crytocurrency. Downvote away.

jessriedel 9y ago
Reiterating an argument that most HNers have heard, and already either agree or disagree with, does not advance the discussion. It would be more constructive to present a novel argument, or novel evidence for a usual argument.
- patryn20 9y ago
  The truth isn't dulled by repetition. It's up to crypto enthusiasts to come up with a use case.
  - jessriedel 9y ago
    You'd probably enjoy running for congress.
  - senatorobama 9y ago
    Yeah, like buying things.
    - patryn20 9y ago
      Bitcoin is basically useless for buying legal things. And especially useless for high dollar transactions without escrow agreements, since the value can fluctuate rapidly before transactions settle and can be liquidated to fiat (funny how moving it to fiat always seems to matter to people selling physical items.).
      - senatorobama 9y ago
        Wish I could buy a coffee with it.
earlz 9y ago
protip: Ethereum can be used by criminals too, not just Bitcoin. Though, I'm curious (not trolling), why is Ethereum's model a better way forward? Are you talking about smart contracts or what?
- patryn20 9y ago
  The smart contract model makes it useful beyond just "purchasing things" (as the unimaginative would say. Yes that's a dig at you senatorobama). The EVM (despite it's implementation flaws) makes it's uses practically limitless. Bitcoin...is an impractical, user-unfriendly first mover. Ethereum is the flawed second mover (ok, I'm discounting all the silly coins in between). I'm honestly not sure who the ultimate winner is. Unless the Bitcoin or Ethereum community fundamentally changes, it likely won't be them.
  - earlz 9y ago
    I'm involved, in this space and agree. Though to play devil's advocate, smart contracts (especially since Ethereum is soon adding zk-snarks) also allow for more sophisticated ways to commit crimes. But yes, I definitely think that smart contracts are the next move forward for this space. Dumb money transfer is a really awesome thing, but it's also quite small. Bitcoin does have some smart contract-ish functionality, but it's incredibly difficult to use, and so is for the most part useless outside of niche applications.
    - patryn20 9y ago
      As I said, Ethereum is fundamentally flawed. And the implementation was...naive. It is a giant liability to all those who use it. I'm very excited for the space. Just not for the current currencies.
      - earlz 9y ago
        Heh, you don't need to tell me about it. If you like reading rants, I wrote one a while back over why the Ethereum Virtual Machine's core design is flawed to the very core http://earlz.net/view/2017/08/13/0451/the-faults-and-shortcomings-of-the-evm http://earlz.net/view/2017/08/13/0451/the-faults-and-shortco...
mahyarm 9y ago
It's also useful for cheaper & faster cross border remittances for the common person. For the common person paypal's %3+ currency exchange fees is more expensive than the equivalent %0.5-%1 in fees you get from a 2 bitcoin exchanges. And it's far faster since everything moves at the speed of local deposits & withdraws.
- patryn20 9y ago
  If you had traded BTC cross border at the wrong time last week, you could have lost 5-15% in value based on the prevailing market price during the time it took the transfer to settle and the coins to move onto an exchange and sell. BTC is in practice a speculative security. Not a currency.
  - patryn20 9y ago
    Now if your goal was simply to circumvent overseas capital transfer limits and legal limitations, that fee might be "worth it."
- woogiewonka 9y ago
  Transferwise is pretty friendly and uses real exchange rate + reasonable fees Usually around 1% or less. With Bitcoin, I can send the same transfer for 0.03% - which puts Transferwise to shame and makes PayPal look like an absurd joke. Granted there's much more involved with current volatility of bitcoin but once that gets more stable all of the other options will be a total joke. People who cant't understand the future of bitcoin as remittence are in for a rude awakening.
  - pg314 9y ago
    You assume that current remittance providers can't lower their fees. That seems dubious.
  - patryn20 9y ago
    This is based on the assumption that bitcoin will stabilize. I think bitcoin is a flawed first mover. The winner (and future stable cryptocurrency) likely hasn't been invented yet. But I imagine it's mathematic properties will allows for a sustainable transaction rate (i.e.: thousands per second), short (as in sub 2-3 second) final confirmation times, and the ability to execute Ethereum like smart contracts without major security flaws and naive language implementation choices.
KGIII 9y ago
You can buy perfectly lawful things at perfectly lawful places. I'd say that is a legitimate use?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wslh 9y ago
> There is still no legitimate use of bitcoin beyond niche markets and speculation You are making me laugh about your ignorance, sorry for my pedantry but... if my company in Argentina receives an international wire transfer from a customer in my HSBC account, it will be less money than if I receive the Bitcoins and exchange it via https://bitex.la/ https://bitex.la/ , and deposit it to the same HSBC account. Both process follow all the tax regulations and are legal.
- patryn20 9y ago
  > Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of money transfer. Cherry picking is fun. Did you transfer money last week? If it had been bitcoin and had been at the wrong time, you would have received less than you asked for. Bitcoin is a speculative security like product, not currency. The power of the bank transfer is that you can predict what you will receive.
  - nikcub 9y ago
    Currency pairs have the same counterparty and volatility risk - it is solved with hedges and other derivatives There is nothing inherent in bitcoin to differentiate it from other currencies that doesn’t allow the same derivative infrastructure to be built out and offered (it already is)
    - throwaway2048 9y ago
      not many currency pairs swing in value by 50% any given week
      - nikcub 9y ago
        yet I can buy a hedge today with a consumer market account in two clicks for a dozen currencies There are plenty of countries with volatile or straight out hyperflating currencies that still manage to trade with the world Wall St and finance market is 8% of GDP - this is what they do
      - 9y ago

jessriedel 9y ago

Reiterating an argument that most HNers have heard, and already either agree or disagree with, does not advance the discussion. It would be more constructive to present a novel argument, or novel evidence for a usual argument.

patryn20 9y ago
The truth isn't dulled by repetition. It's up to crypto enthusiasts to come up with a use case.
- jessriedel 9y ago
  You'd probably enjoy running for congress.
- senatorobama 9y ago
  Yeah, like buying things.
  - patryn20 9y ago
    Bitcoin is basically useless for buying legal things. And especially useless for high dollar transactions without escrow agreements, since the value can fluctuate rapidly before transactions settle and can be liquidated to fiat (funny how moving it to fiat always seems to matter to people selling physical items.).
    - senatorobama 9y ago
      Wish I could buy a coffee with it.

earlz 9y ago

protip: Ethereum can be used by criminals too, not just Bitcoin. Though, I'm curious (not trolling), why is Ethereum's model a better way forward? Are you talking about smart contracts or what?

patryn20 9y ago
The smart contract model makes it useful beyond just "purchasing things" (as the unimaginative would say. Yes that's a dig at you senatorobama). The EVM (despite it's implementation flaws) makes it's uses practically limitless. Bitcoin...is an impractical, user-unfriendly first mover. Ethereum is the flawed second mover (ok, I'm discounting all the silly coins in between). I'm honestly not sure who the ultimate winner is. Unless the Bitcoin or Ethereum community fundamentally changes, it likely won't be them.
- earlz 9y ago
  I'm involved, in this space and agree. Though to play devil's advocate, smart contracts (especially since Ethereum is soon adding zk-snarks) also allow for more sophisticated ways to commit crimes. But yes, I definitely think that smart contracts are the next move forward for this space. Dumb money transfer is a really awesome thing, but it's also quite small. Bitcoin does have some smart contract-ish functionality, but it's incredibly difficult to use, and so is for the most part useless outside of niche applications.
  - patryn20 9y ago
    As I said, Ethereum is fundamentally flawed. And the implementation was...naive. It is a giant liability to all those who use it. I'm very excited for the space. Just not for the current currencies.
    - earlz 9y ago
      Heh, you don't need to tell me about it. If you like reading rants, I wrote one a while back over why the Ethereum Virtual Machine's core design is flawed to the very core http://earlz.net/view/2017/08/13/0451/the-faults-and-shortcomings-of-the-evm http://earlz.net/view/2017/08/13/0451/the-faults-and-shortco...

mahyarm 9y ago

It's also useful for cheaper & faster cross border remittances for the common person. For the common person paypal's %3+ currency exchange fees is more expensive than the equivalent %0.5-%1 in fees you get from a 2 bitcoin exchanges. And it's far faster since everything moves at the speed of local deposits & withdraws.

patryn20 9y ago
If you had traded BTC cross border at the wrong time last week, you could have lost 5-15% in value based on the prevailing market price during the time it took the transfer to settle and the coins to move onto an exchange and sell. BTC is in practice a speculative security. Not a currency.
- patryn20 9y ago
  Now if your goal was simply to circumvent overseas capital transfer limits and legal limitations, that fee might be "worth it."
woogiewonka 9y ago
Transferwise is pretty friendly and uses real exchange rate + reasonable fees Usually around 1% or less. With Bitcoin, I can send the same transfer for 0.03% - which puts Transferwise to shame and makes PayPal look like an absurd joke. Granted there's much more involved with current volatility of bitcoin but once that gets more stable all of the other options will be a total joke. People who cant't understand the future of bitcoin as remittence are in for a rude awakening.
- pg314 9y ago
  You assume that current remittance providers can't lower their fees. That seems dubious.
- patryn20 9y ago
  This is based on the assumption that bitcoin will stabilize. I think bitcoin is a flawed first mover. The winner (and future stable cryptocurrency) likely hasn't been invented yet. But I imagine it's mathematic properties will allows for a sustainable transaction rate (i.e.: thousands per second), short (as in sub 2-3 second) final confirmation times, and the ability to execute Ethereum like smart contracts without major security flaws and naive language implementation choices.

KGIII 9y ago

You can buy perfectly lawful things at perfectly lawful places. I'd say that is a legitimate use?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

wslh 9y ago

> There is still no legitimate use of bitcoin beyond niche markets and speculation You are making me laugh about your ignorance, sorry for my pedantry but... if my company in Argentina receives an international wire transfer from a customer in my HSBC account, it will be less money than if I receive the Bitcoins and exchange it via https://bitex.la/ https://bitex.la/ , and deposit it to the same HSBC account. Both process follow all the tax regulations and are legal.

patryn20 9y ago
> Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of money transfer. Cherry picking is fun. Did you transfer money last week? If it had been bitcoin and had been at the wrong time, you would have received less than you asked for. Bitcoin is a speculative security like product, not currency. The power of the bank transfer is that you can predict what you will receive.
- nikcub 9y ago
  Currency pairs have the same counterparty and volatility risk - it is solved with hedges and other derivatives There is nothing inherent in bitcoin to differentiate it from other currencies that doesn’t allow the same derivative infrastructure to be built out and offered (it already is)
  - throwaway2048 9y ago
    not many currency pairs swing in value by 50% any given week
    - nikcub 9y ago
      yet I can buy a hedge today with a consumer market account in two clicks for a dozen currencies There are plenty of countries with volatile or straight out hyperflating currencies that still manage to trade with the world Wall St and finance market is 8% of GDP - this is what they do
    - 9y ago