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This claim sounds like a post-hoc rationalization... Should this not be applicable to any type of engineering? "The industry pushes for more STEM education so t

This claim sounds like a post-hoc rationalization... Should this not be applicable to any type of engineering? "The industry pushes for more STEM education so they have access to cheaper engineering labor force". Yet engineering of any type is fairly well paid (of course it could be better, there are way too many things that could and should be better). And the point of modern education is not simply to create a work force (this is way too cynical). The fact that it creates a population of well rounded individuals necessary for a functioning rational democracy seems quite a bit more important.

ThrustVectoring 9y ago
Modern education hasn't produced well-rounded individuals since the nadir of Taylorism in 1910. It's produced one-dimensional people who are good at passing arbitrary requirements for the sake of passing arbitrary requirements. This process is even worse in countries without the socio-cultural background of the US - read Feynman's description of education in Brazil (iirc, from Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman) for a fantastic example of this sort of degeneracy. Essentially, it had students "learning physics" by memorizing and guessing what the teacher wanted from students who had "learned physics".
- krastanov 9y ago
  I have read it, and I also have worked with educators in the US, France, and Eastern Europe. While there are plenty of things done wrong, the claim that a modern school hasn't produced a well-rounded individual is ridiculous. Yes, there is way too much focus on standardized tests, but there are also many schools that do a great job at creating stellar pupils. Regrettably, this is usually available only in affluent areas (and even then it is not universal).
  - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
    I'm not sure you can call very many students well-rounded when they haven't done anything significant on their own initiative at age 21. Adolescents used to go and learn trigonometry so they could do surveying, or pick up silversmithing, or whatever, at like age 12 to 16. Now they don't.
    - krastanov 9y ago
      Trig to do surveying at 12 is the exact opposite of well rounded. On the other hand very many students today indeed have amazing breadth of knowledge from math to literature and civics (which you can see in their writing, extracurricular choices and volunteer work) - something that gets much rarer as you go in the past where students had to pick up work at age 12 to 16. Regrettably, today in the US, schools that are not in affluent areas have trouble living up to this standard.
saimiam 9y ago
An education trying to create a rational democracy would focus on liberal arts mixed in some ratio with an engineering temper. Focusing only on engineering and science will cost society art and creativity. I live in India and while we have a robust movie industry, we (I can speak only for the little middle class I'm exposed to) don't enjoy art. E.g., none of my high school friends became dancers. We have exactly one alumnus of my high school who is reknowned nationally as a dancer. Yes, India is very science and engineering focused.
- david38 9y ago
  What does art have to do with democracy? That's pure hubris. Most engineers I know are far more widely read and know more about art and culture than most liberal arts people I know.
  - saimiam 9y ago
    Knowing about is not creating. Speaking of hubris, the ultimate hubris would be to presume to know art just because I have read up on it. Art has everything to do with democracy. An artist imagines and renders a world created solely between their ears. Such worlds show us what could be. Take, for example, any "artist rendering" of space - as a child, seeing those beautiful impressed upon me a sense of wonder far more than any theory of Newtonian motion studied in high school did. Presenting and discussing such new worlds IS democracy. And in case you think I'm referring solely to sexy sci-fi drawings, an written essay lambasting secularism in favor of religious dogma is also art. Engineers are the implementers of the world, the workhorses. I say this as an engineer. We need artists and imagineers whose job is to let their mind roam free. A country which loves engineers is a country which is always catching up.
    - dozzie 9y ago
      Artists did not imagine vaccines or modern health care. (Neither did engineers, though.) Artists did not imagine engines nor engine propelled vehicles. Artists did not imagine communication networks before they were already in place. Artists did not imagine power relay (natural gas and later electricity and heat). We need people who understand how the world works and have intuition about what can be achieved and we need their minds roam free. There are very, very little novel things that aren't merely gadgets that were first imagined by artists and taken from there and implemented by engineers.

ThrustVectoring 9y ago

Modern education hasn't produced well-rounded individuals since the nadir of Taylorism in 1910. It's produced one-dimensional people who are good at passing arbitrary requirements for the sake of passing arbitrary requirements. This process is even worse in countries without the socio-cultural background of the US - read Feynman's description of education in Brazil (iirc, from Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman) for a fantastic example of this sort of degeneracy. Essentially, it had students "learning physics" by memorizing and guessing what the teacher wanted from students who had "learned physics".

krastanov 9y ago
I have read it, and I also have worked with educators in the US, France, and Eastern Europe. While there are plenty of things done wrong, the claim that a modern school hasn't produced a well-rounded individual is ridiculous. Yes, there is way too much focus on standardized tests, but there are also many schools that do a great job at creating stellar pupils. Regrettably, this is usually available only in affluent areas (and even then it is not universal).
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  I'm not sure you can call very many students well-rounded when they haven't done anything significant on their own initiative at age 21. Adolescents used to go and learn trigonometry so they could do surveying, or pick up silversmithing, or whatever, at like age 12 to 16. Now they don't.
  - krastanov 9y ago
    Trig to do surveying at 12 is the exact opposite of well rounded. On the other hand very many students today indeed have amazing breadth of knowledge from math to literature and civics (which you can see in their writing, extracurricular choices and volunteer work) - something that gets much rarer as you go in the past where students had to pick up work at age 12 to 16. Regrettably, today in the US, schools that are not in affluent areas have trouble living up to this standard.

saimiam 9y ago

An education trying to create a rational democracy would focus on liberal arts mixed in some ratio with an engineering temper. Focusing only on engineering and science will cost society art and creativity. I live in India and while we have a robust movie industry, we (I can speak only for the little middle class I'm exposed to) don't enjoy art. E.g., none of my high school friends became dancers. We have exactly one alumnus of my high school who is reknowned nationally as a dancer. Yes, India is very science and engineering focused.

david38 9y ago
What does art have to do with democracy? That's pure hubris. Most engineers I know are far more widely read and know more about art and culture than most liberal arts people I know.
- saimiam 9y ago
  Knowing about is not creating. Speaking of hubris, the ultimate hubris would be to presume to know art just because I have read up on it. Art has everything to do with democracy. An artist imagines and renders a world created solely between their ears. Such worlds show us what could be. Take, for example, any "artist rendering" of space - as a child, seeing those beautiful impressed upon me a sense of wonder far more than any theory of Newtonian motion studied in high school did. Presenting and discussing such new worlds IS democracy. And in case you think I'm referring solely to sexy sci-fi drawings, an written essay lambasting secularism in favor of religious dogma is also art. Engineers are the implementers of the world, the workhorses. I say this as an engineer. We need artists and imagineers whose job is to let their mind roam free. A country which loves engineers is a country which is always catching up.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    Artists did not imagine vaccines or modern health care. (Neither did engineers, though.) Artists did not imagine engines nor engine propelled vehicles. Artists did not imagine communication networks before they were already in place. Artists did not imagine power relay (natural gas and later electricity and heat). We need people who understand how the world works and have intuition about what can be achieved and we need their minds roam free. There are very, very little novel things that aren't merely gadgets that were first imagined by artists and taken from there and implemented by engineers.