4 ms·

The current state of things is that patents are stockpiled as deterrents, kind of like nuclear weapons. All of the big companies know that if they sued one anot

The current state of things is that patents are stockpiled as deterrents, kind of like nuclear weapons. All of the big companies know that if they sued one another over some patent claim, the other side would retaliate, and it would be a big mess with no real winners. Facebook's patent clause disarms all their opponents, but leaves them free to attack. It's actually a wildly aggressive, offensive weapon, surprisingly - just like how nuclear missile defense is one of the more provocative technologies out there that possibly makes nuclear conflicts more probably. That's why it's totally unpalatable, at least at the big companies.

jaredklewis 9y ago
It seems like people never get tired of not reading the PATENTS file. “Wildly aggressive?” Please. The agreement explicitly forbids Facebook from revoking your patent grant if they are the aggressor. Without the agreement (i.e. just BSD) Facebook is free to sue you for patent infringement. They add a file that says they can’t do that unless you sue them first and suddenly people are out for blood. Salem 2.0.
- slaymaker1907 9y ago
  Only over the React patents. They could, however, sue you over your VR system or something but leave you little recourse due to not wanting to lose your React/other FB patent grants.
  - jaredklewis 9y ago
    Nope. The PATENTS file specifically says that if Facebook initiates patent litigation (related or unrelated to React) you can counter sue Facebook AND keep your React patent grant. "...if Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates files a lawsuit alleging patent infringement against you in the first instance, and you respond by filing a patent infringement counterclaim in that lawsuit against that party that is unrelated to the Software, the license granted hereunder will not terminate under section (i) of this paragraph due to such counterclaim."
    - lftl 9y ago
      The only legitimate criticism I've heard of the FB patent grant is that FB could intentionally infringe your patents and the you couldn't sue them for infringement without losing your React patent grant. It's such a narrow case though that I seriously doubt it's a legitimate concern for most of the people complaining about it.
      - dllthomas 9y ago
        And you can stop using React, then sue. Even if they also stop using your patent, they were in violation when they used it. They can't retroactively put you in violation with their revocation. Moreover, nothing is preventing you from informing them of your patent and asking that they stop using it. If they continue to, it's clearly willful infringement.
  - rhinoceraptor 9y ago
    What React patents are there? And it seems to me that using Preact/Vue/etc would not be any better than using React if in fact there are patented technologies in React.
    - mort96 9y ago
      Is there _any_ technology that isn't covered by some patent? I would imagine virtually every library we use unknowingly infringes on dozens of patents.
aljones 9y ago
But it wasn't unpalatable at Google, MS, Apple and many other large companies.
chrisco255 9y ago
No, they said your license didn't terminate if you had a counterclaim against them. The only event that license terminated was if YOU attacked Facebook.
- nilliams 9y ago
  > The only event that license terminated Patent grant terminated, not license
kelnos 9y ago
Yes, I get that, and addressed the power imbalance in my comment... But on second reading I realize I was wrong (in a good way). Facebook's patent grant specifically says that if they sue you for patent infringement, and you counter-sue with something that is unrelated to the software of FB's that you are using, then your license to use FB's software is NOT terminated. That's actually entirely reasonable and great.
blktiger 9y ago
It's not just big companies necessarily either. Say you are a small startup working on something really innovative and you have a patent on part of your work. Facebook decides to build something similar, violating your patents in the process, and they are going to put you out of business. If one of your core technologies is react under the BSD + Patents license, then you are screwed. You can't sue to save your business because even if you do you have to immediately recall all of your software and replace React. Sure, not everyone is in that situation. Facebook is big enough though that if you have any patents you have to be _very_ careful about that license.
- ec109685 9y ago
  Why would you immediately have to recall your software? Facebook would have to have counter sued you for some hypothetical patent they have for React first and “recall all your software” would have had to be the court ordered remedy.
  - blktiger 9y ago
    True, they would have to counter-sue but you don't think they would in that situation? Technically your license is invalid and if you have _shipped_ software to customers that is violating the license is it not?
    - ec109685 9y ago
      Suing Facebook does not invalidate your license to use their software and source code. The BSD license still applies after you sue Facebook. It can’t be taken away.
paulddraper 9y ago
Hasn't that already happened? Oracle v. Google?

jaredklewis 9y ago

It seems like people never get tired of not reading the PATENTS file. “Wildly aggressive?” Please. The agreement explicitly forbids Facebook from revoking your patent grant if they are the aggressor. Without the agreement (i.e. just BSD) Facebook is free to sue you for patent infringement. They add a file that says they can’t do that unless you sue them first and suddenly people are out for blood. Salem 2.0.

slaymaker1907 9y ago
Only over the React patents. They could, however, sue you over your VR system or something but leave you little recourse due to not wanting to lose your React/other FB patent grants.
- jaredklewis 9y ago
  Nope. The PATENTS file specifically says that if Facebook initiates patent litigation (related or unrelated to React) you can counter sue Facebook AND keep your React patent grant. "...if Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates files a lawsuit alleging patent infringement against you in the first instance, and you respond by filing a patent infringement counterclaim in that lawsuit against that party that is unrelated to the Software, the license granted hereunder will not terminate under section (i) of this paragraph due to such counterclaim."
  - lftl 9y ago
    The only legitimate criticism I've heard of the FB patent grant is that FB could intentionally infringe your patents and the you couldn't sue them for infringement without losing your React patent grant. It's such a narrow case though that I seriously doubt it's a legitimate concern for most of the people complaining about it.
    - dllthomas 9y ago
      And you can stop using React, then sue. Even if they also stop using your patent, they were in violation when they used it. They can't retroactively put you in violation with their revocation. Moreover, nothing is preventing you from informing them of your patent and asking that they stop using it. If they continue to, it's clearly willful infringement.
- rhinoceraptor 9y ago
  What React patents are there? And it seems to me that using Preact/Vue/etc would not be any better than using React if in fact there are patented technologies in React.
  - mort96 9y ago
    Is there _any_ technology that isn't covered by some patent? I would imagine virtually every library we use unknowingly infringes on dozens of patents.

aljones 9y ago

But it wasn't unpalatable at Google, MS, Apple and many other large companies.

chrisco255 9y ago

No, they said your license didn't terminate if you had a counterclaim against them. The only event that license terminated was if YOU attacked Facebook.

nilliams 9y ago
> The only event that license terminated Patent grant terminated, not license

kelnos 9y ago

Yes, I get that, and addressed the power imbalance in my comment... But on second reading I realize I was wrong (in a good way). Facebook's patent grant specifically says that if they sue you for patent infringement, and you counter-sue with something that is unrelated to the software of FB's that you are using, then your license to use FB's software is NOT terminated. That's actually entirely reasonable and great.

blktiger 9y ago

It's not just big companies necessarily either. Say you are a small startup working on something really innovative and you have a patent on part of your work. Facebook decides to build something similar, violating your patents in the process, and they are going to put you out of business. If one of your core technologies is react under the BSD + Patents license, then you are screwed. You can't sue to save your business because even if you do you have to immediately recall all of your software and replace React. Sure, not everyone is in that situation. Facebook is big enough though that if you have any patents you have to be _very_ careful about that license.

ec109685 9y ago
Why would you immediately have to recall your software? Facebook would have to have counter sued you for some hypothetical patent they have for React first and “recall all your software” would have had to be the court ordered remedy.
- blktiger 9y ago
  True, they would have to counter-sue but you don't think they would in that situation? Technically your license is invalid and if you have _shipped_ software to customers that is violating the license is it not?
  - ec109685 9y ago
    Suing Facebook does not invalidate your license to use their software and source code. The BSD license still applies after you sue Facebook. It can’t be taken away.

paulddraper 9y ago

Hasn't that already happened? Oracle v. Google?