7 ms·

Hopefully it's cheap and/or Bill Gates starts throwing money into producing it if it passes clinical trials. I have a feeling that Africa is where AIDS does the

Hopefully it's cheap and/or Bill Gates starts throwing money into producing it if it passes clinical trials. I have a feeling that Africa is where AIDS does the most damage, and I doubt they can afford the $1000/mo. it will certainly cost in the States.

joshstrange 9y ago
Not that it helps Africa but in the US for a drug like Truvada (PrEP) it costs ~$1500/mo on insurance but they offer a copay card that covers $3600/yr which is enough to hit my deductible at least so after 2 months I only pay $30/mo but in practice I don't pay a dime because the copay card covers it all.
- tertius 9y ago
  Drugs are cheaper and largely subsidized by governments with high incidence of HIV. *I'm South African, antiretrovirals are free.
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    Drugs are cheaper and largely subsidized by governments with high incidence of HIV. I'm South African, antiretrovirals are free.* Almost got it right: Drugs elsewhere are cheaper and largely subsidized by USA citizens. Those drugs cost a fortune to make and the companies make their money in USA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pharmaceuticals-usa-comparison/exclusive-transatlantic-divide-how-u-s-pays-three-times-more-for-drugs-idUSKCN0S61KU20151012 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pharmaceuticals-usa-compa...
    - tertius 9y ago
      > Almost got it right: Drugs elsewhere are cheaper and largely subsidized by USA citizens. * Correction, by U.S. government (through law). > Those drugs cost a fortune to make and the companies make their money in USA. Yes R&D is expensive, but pharma is extremely profitable. Here in the U.S. and abroad.
      - tryingagainbro 9y ago
        The difference in pricing is STAGGERING. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/New-Hepatitis-C-drug-99-cheaper-in-India/articleshow/39719323.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/New-Hepatitis-C-dru... The blockbuster hepatitis C drug will cost about $900 (around Rs 54,000) in India for a 12-week course of treatment. That would be a fraction of the $84,000 (over Rs 50 lakh) price tag for the same treatment in US. I'm sure that they wouldn't be that profitable if USA paid $900 for that drug, especially the first few years. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/business/sales-of-sovaldi-new-gilead-hepatitis-c-drug-soar-to-10-3-billion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/business/sales-of-sovaldi... 140,000 patients in USA and going to 250,000
        tertius 9y ago
        Drugs are cheapest in India. Let's normalize. I.e. far end of the pricing bell curve. But the answer is still, yes, there is profitability. Just not as much as with the hyper inflated prices in the US. In short: Does the extreme cost for drugs in the US cause groundbreaking research to benefit the whole world? No, same results could be had with way less profit. Money to fund moonshot research is still important though.
        pkaye 9y ago
        Given the lower labor costs and people consider drugs to be so profitable, I don't know why other countries don't do as much research and drug development. Just a few countries carry the lion share of this effort.
        refurb 9y ago
        That would be my response. If someone else can improve R&D and lower the cost of drugs, they are more than welcome to. Interestingly, I haven't seen any takers.
        tertius 9y ago
    - FabHK 9y ago
      And yet, reportedly US pharmaceuticals spend more money on marketing and promotion (i.e. coddling up to the doctors who prescribe their products) than R&D. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/11/big-pharmaceutical-companies-are-spending-far-more-on-marketing-than-research/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/11/big-p... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.h...
      - refurb 9y ago
        God I wish this myth would die. First off, that's not sales and marketing expense. It's what accountants called "sales and general administration" which yes, marketing falls into, but so do a number of other items. It's not 100% marketing. Second, the only reason why a company would spend money on promotion is if the return is >100%. So, if drug companies were to stop all promotion, their profit would actually fall, not go up. So it's not going to reduce the cost of drugs. Third, I've talked to a number of physicians would appreciate the marketing that drug companies do. They don't have time to keep up on the latest, so a 15 minute chat with a drug rep might save them a lot of time. Of course, they know the marketing is biased, but it at least gives them a sense as to what's out there.
        philwelch 9y ago
        > Second, the only reason why a company would spend money on promotion is if the return is >100%. So, if drug companies were to stop all promotion, their profit would actually fall, not go up. So it's not going to reduce the cost of drugs. Not necessarily. Advertising is often a negative-sum game. To give a simplified, quasi-hypothetical example, if neither Coke nor Pepsi advertised, they would still have very similar market shares and revenues. But then Pepsi realizes they can spend $1MM advertising to swing $1.25MM of revenue from Coke, and Coke spends $1MM to swing $1.25MM revenue back, and now both companies are $1MM in the hole for no gain. In this case, everyone—Coke, Pepsi, and the consumer—is better off if the government just banned soda advertising. Well, maybe not the ad agencies, TV networks, and celebrity sponsors, but there’s still a net economic loss to society. Lots of drug advertising is of this useless, competitive type. If no one advertised erection drugs, people would just go to the doctor and take whatever was prescribed to them. But if Cialis blankets the airwaves, they can swing market share from Viagra.
  - nkkollaw 9y ago
    Even poorer countries..? South Africa is not exactly was I was referring to. More like Congo, Senegal, etc.
    - tertius 9y ago
      South Africa has the highest population of AIDS sufferers. That's why they're a good example.
    - stun 9y ago
      ARVs (antiretrovirals) are free in Uganda. They are also manufactured right there
- jahnu 9y ago
  Honestly, when you US folks talk about how your medical bills work and are paid there is so much jargon and complexity it sounds like Star Trek techno-babble to my ears. "I have a common but chronic ailment so all I had to do was re-route the phase-converter to the deflector shield and invert the chromaton particles in Shelk-Einstein space and we're done!" :/
  - toast0 9y ago
    This is the real heart of the healthcare cost problem in the US. No party in the process knows how much anything costs, so it's unsurprising that costs go up so fast. This wouldn't be tenable in an individual pays environment, or in a government pays environment, but in the US environment where many people get coverage from employment we end up in this crazy system where there are so many parties involved in payment, that nobody knows what's going on. In this case, the patient (A) may be getting the drug from a pharmacy (B), and the pharmacy bought the drug from the manufacturer (C), but the patient's insurance (D) is paying part of the cost of the drug, but so is the manufacturer, and insurance is paid for partially by the patient, and partially by the employer (E). There may also be direct government subsidies, and there are certainly indirect subsidies as well. Of course none of the 5 parties can really know how much anything costs, or how to reduce costs. Not to mention all the extra labor involved in administration of this complex system.
    - elihu 9y ago
      I didn't quite follow joshstrange's accounting so I don't know if this is what he's describing, but (unless it's been changed recently), in some states it's legal for manufacturer of an expensive medication to give coupons to customers to reimburse them for their copay. This sounds like a nice, generous thing to do, but basically it means that the drug company is bribing the customer to force their insurance company to spend more money on their behalf. So, imagine that a drug costs $1000 and the customer's copay is $200. The drug company can give the customer a $200 coupon to recover their copay and then raise the price of the drug to $1200. They've basically shifted the price from the customer (who decides whether or not to get the drug and is probably very sensitive to price) to the insurer. They make the same profit, but can probably sell to a lot more customers because it's "free". While they're at it, they could raise the price to $1500 or $2000, and it's still free to the customer. I think this is a corrupt practice and it's crazy that it's even legal, but it's just one small part of the complexity and perverse incentives of our health care system.
chasil 9y ago
Antibody manufacture is not cheap. The antibodies are made by fusing the b-memory cells with mouse cancer, then putting the result in a bioreactor and filtering out the desired product, which must then be refrigerated. Drugs that use this technique commonly end in -MAB (for monoclonal antibody).
- danielmorozoff 9y ago
  Are these monoclonals or polys? Does anyone have a paper ref?
- L_Rahman 9y ago
  Given the entrenched nature of the American pharmaceutical industry, I'm unconvinced that any of them have actually tried to solve the problem of cheap antibody manufacturing at scale.
  - refurb 9y ago
    Why wouldn't they? Any reduction in cost is pure profit for them.
    - Kalium 9y ago
      Reflexive paranoia rather than calm business analysis tends to rule the day when pharmaceutical companies are under consideration.
dna_polymerase 9y ago
If this is produced by Pfizer or some other company he is invested in, sure. Otherwise he will fall back to talking bs all day long like he does with Malaria. For those downvoting: His foundation made sure the WHO subcontracts all studies to companies he has a stake in. He isn't a saint, he is a capitalist.
- usaphp 9y ago
  > Otherwise he will fall back to talking bs all day long like he does with Malaria. Can you elaborate on this? I thought he was a type of person who does more than he talks.
  - dna_polymerase 9y ago
    Sure, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is used for tax evasion, supporting corporate interest in developing countries and to control the WHO. https://www.globaljustice.org.uk/sites/default/files/files/resources/gjn_gates_report_june_2016_web_final_version_2.pdf https://www.globaljustice.org.uk/sites/default/files/files/r... They even advised not to lower prices for vaccines, because then pharma corporations wouldn't invest in the global south anymore.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      If you have evidence of tax evasion, I'm sure the tax authorities would love to hear about it.
      - rosege 9y ago
        I guess they mean tax avoidance
        KGIII 9y ago
        Ah, yeah, maybe. I wonder if people know that non-profits, especially those that are that large, are given heavy financial scrutiny and that they can actually check the financial information themselves? The foundation will have a link to download their financial information and, given the levels of oversight and mandatory auditing, they are almost certain to be accurate. The Gates Foundation does great things. I've never understood the complaints. They are pretty heavily scrutinized and their actions are fairly public. It's not some nefarious organization, at least it isn't from what I've read. Edited to add: Hmm... They responded with a stange, now dead, comment. I am no longer sure what they meant. It'd appear they think Jobs is my false god. I remain baffled.

joshstrange 9y ago

Not that it helps Africa but in the US for a drug like Truvada (PrEP) it costs ~$1500/mo on insurance but they offer a copay card that covers $3600/yr which is enough to hit my deductible at least so after 2 months I only pay $30/mo but in practice I don't pay a dime because the copay card covers it all.

tertius 9y ago
Drugs are cheaper and largely subsidized by governments with high incidence of HIV. *I'm South African, antiretrovirals are free.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  Drugs are cheaper and largely subsidized by governments with high incidence of HIV. I'm South African, antiretrovirals are free.* Almost got it right: Drugs elsewhere are cheaper and largely subsidized by USA citizens. Those drugs cost a fortune to make and the companies make their money in USA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pharmaceuticals-usa-comparison/exclusive-transatlantic-divide-how-u-s-pays-three-times-more-for-drugs-idUSKCN0S61KU20151012 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pharmaceuticals-usa-compa...
  - tertius 9y ago
    > Almost got it right: Drugs elsewhere are cheaper and largely subsidized by USA citizens. * Correction, by U.S. government (through law). > Those drugs cost a fortune to make and the companies make their money in USA. Yes R&D is expensive, but pharma is extremely profitable. Here in the U.S. and abroad.
    - tryingagainbro 9y ago
      The difference in pricing is STAGGERING. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/New-Hepatitis-C-drug-99-cheaper-in-India/articleshow/39719323.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/New-Hepatitis-C-dru... The blockbuster hepatitis C drug will cost about $900 (around Rs 54,000) in India for a 12-week course of treatment. That would be a fraction of the $84,000 (over Rs 50 lakh) price tag for the same treatment in US. I'm sure that they wouldn't be that profitable if USA paid $900 for that drug, especially the first few years. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/business/sales-of-sovaldi-new-gilead-hepatitis-c-drug-soar-to-10-3-billion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/business/sales-of-sovaldi... 140,000 patients in USA and going to 250,000
      - tertius 9y ago
        Drugs are cheapest in India. Let's normalize. I.e. far end of the pricing bell curve. But the answer is still, yes, there is profitability. Just not as much as with the hyper inflated prices in the US. In short: Does the extreme cost for drugs in the US cause groundbreaking research to benefit the whole world? No, same results could be had with way less profit. Money to fund moonshot research is still important though.
        pkaye 9y ago
        Given the lower labor costs and people consider drugs to be so profitable, I don't know why other countries don't do as much research and drug development. Just a few countries carry the lion share of this effort.
        refurb 9y ago
        That would be my response. If someone else can improve R&D and lower the cost of drugs, they are more than welcome to. Interestingly, I haven't seen any takers.
        tertius 9y ago
  - FabHK 9y ago
    And yet, reportedly US pharmaceuticals spend more money on marketing and promotion (i.e. coddling up to the doctors who prescribe their products) than R&D. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/11/big-pharmaceutical-companies-are-spending-far-more-on-marketing-than-research/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/11/big-p... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.h...
    - refurb 9y ago
      God I wish this myth would die. First off, that's not sales and marketing expense. It's what accountants called "sales and general administration" which yes, marketing falls into, but so do a number of other items. It's not 100% marketing. Second, the only reason why a company would spend money on promotion is if the return is >100%. So, if drug companies were to stop all promotion, their profit would actually fall, not go up. So it's not going to reduce the cost of drugs. Third, I've talked to a number of physicians would appreciate the marketing that drug companies do. They don't have time to keep up on the latest, so a 15 minute chat with a drug rep might save them a lot of time. Of course, they know the marketing is biased, but it at least gives them a sense as to what's out there.
      - philwelch 9y ago
        > Second, the only reason why a company would spend money on promotion is if the return is >100%. So, if drug companies were to stop all promotion, their profit would actually fall, not go up. So it's not going to reduce the cost of drugs. Not necessarily. Advertising is often a negative-sum game. To give a simplified, quasi-hypothetical example, if neither Coke nor Pepsi advertised, they would still have very similar market shares and revenues. But then Pepsi realizes they can spend $1MM advertising to swing $1.25MM of revenue from Coke, and Coke spends $1MM to swing $1.25MM revenue back, and now both companies are $1MM in the hole for no gain. In this case, everyone—Coke, Pepsi, and the consumer—is better off if the government just banned soda advertising. Well, maybe not the ad agencies, TV networks, and celebrity sponsors, but there’s still a net economic loss to society. Lots of drug advertising is of this useless, competitive type. If no one advertised erection drugs, people would just go to the doctor and take whatever was prescribed to them. But if Cialis blankets the airwaves, they can swing market share from Viagra.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  Even poorer countries..? South Africa is not exactly was I was referring to. More like Congo, Senegal, etc.
  - tertius 9y ago
    South Africa has the highest population of AIDS sufferers. That's why they're a good example.
  - stun 9y ago
    ARVs (antiretrovirals) are free in Uganda. They are also manufactured right there
jahnu 9y ago
Honestly, when you US folks talk about how your medical bills work and are paid there is so much jargon and complexity it sounds like Star Trek techno-babble to my ears. "I have a common but chronic ailment so all I had to do was re-route the phase-converter to the deflector shield and invert the chromaton particles in Shelk-Einstein space and we're done!" :/
- toast0 9y ago
  This is the real heart of the healthcare cost problem in the US. No party in the process knows how much anything costs, so it's unsurprising that costs go up so fast. This wouldn't be tenable in an individual pays environment, or in a government pays environment, but in the US environment where many people get coverage from employment we end up in this crazy system where there are so many parties involved in payment, that nobody knows what's going on. In this case, the patient (A) may be getting the drug from a pharmacy (B), and the pharmacy bought the drug from the manufacturer (C), but the patient's insurance (D) is paying part of the cost of the drug, but so is the manufacturer, and insurance is paid for partially by the patient, and partially by the employer (E). There may also be direct government subsidies, and there are certainly indirect subsidies as well. Of course none of the 5 parties can really know how much anything costs, or how to reduce costs. Not to mention all the extra labor involved in administration of this complex system.
  - elihu 9y ago
    I didn't quite follow joshstrange's accounting so I don't know if this is what he's describing, but (unless it's been changed recently), in some states it's legal for manufacturer of an expensive medication to give coupons to customers to reimburse them for their copay. This sounds like a nice, generous thing to do, but basically it means that the drug company is bribing the customer to force their insurance company to spend more money on their behalf. So, imagine that a drug costs $1000 and the customer's copay is $200. The drug company can give the customer a $200 coupon to recover their copay and then raise the price of the drug to $1200. They've basically shifted the price from the customer (who decides whether or not to get the drug and is probably very sensitive to price) to the insurer. They make the same profit, but can probably sell to a lot more customers because it's "free". While they're at it, they could raise the price to $1500 or $2000, and it's still free to the customer. I think this is a corrupt practice and it's crazy that it's even legal, but it's just one small part of the complexity and perverse incentives of our health care system.

chasil 9y ago

Antibody manufacture is not cheap. The antibodies are made by fusing the b-memory cells with mouse cancer, then putting the result in a bioreactor and filtering out the desired product, which must then be refrigerated. Drugs that use this technique commonly end in -MAB (for monoclonal antibody).

danielmorozoff 9y ago
Are these monoclonals or polys? Does anyone have a paper ref?
L_Rahman 9y ago
Given the entrenched nature of the American pharmaceutical industry, I'm unconvinced that any of them have actually tried to solve the problem of cheap antibody manufacturing at scale.
- refurb 9y ago
  Why wouldn't they? Any reduction in cost is pure profit for them.
  - Kalium 9y ago
    Reflexive paranoia rather than calm business analysis tends to rule the day when pharmaceutical companies are under consideration.

dna_polymerase 9y ago

If this is produced by Pfizer or some other company he is invested in, sure. Otherwise he will fall back to talking bs all day long like he does with Malaria. For those downvoting: His foundation made sure the WHO subcontracts all studies to companies he has a stake in. He isn't a saint, he is a capitalist.

usaphp 9y ago
> Otherwise he will fall back to talking bs all day long like he does with Malaria. Can you elaborate on this? I thought he was a type of person who does more than he talks.
- dna_polymerase 9y ago
  Sure, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is used for tax evasion, supporting corporate interest in developing countries and to control the WHO. https://www.globaljustice.org.uk/sites/default/files/files/resources/gjn_gates_report_june_2016_web_final_version_2.pdf https://www.globaljustice.org.uk/sites/default/files/files/r... They even advised not to lower prices for vaccines, because then pharma corporations wouldn't invest in the global south anymore.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    If you have evidence of tax evasion, I'm sure the tax authorities would love to hear about it.
    - rosege 9y ago
      I guess they mean tax avoidance
      - KGIII 9y ago
        Ah, yeah, maybe. I wonder if people know that non-profits, especially those that are that large, are given heavy financial scrutiny and that they can actually check the financial information themselves? The foundation will have a link to download their financial information and, given the levels of oversight and mandatory auditing, they are almost certain to be accurate. The Gates Foundation does great things. I've never understood the complaints. They are pretty heavily scrutinized and their actions are fairly public. It's not some nefarious organization, at least it isn't from what I've read. Edited to add: Hmm... They responded with a stange, now dead, comment. I am no longer sure what they meant. It'd appear they think Jobs is my false god. I remain baffled.