15 ms·

The Last Analog Motion Graphics Machine [video]

172 points by Unai 9y ago

tudorw 9y ago
The instantaneous hands on control is enticing, I've played with analog audio and the immediacy of alterations and infinite resolution is palpable in comparison to their digital equivalents. He should live stream some 'art' pieces to music, I'd watch :) Here's Scanimate + Moog; https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=184&v=1Cywgoftv4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=184&v=1Cywgoftv4... More at http://www.scanimate.com/index.html http://www.scanimate.com/index.html
- npgatech 9y ago
  "I've played with analog audio and the immediacy of alterations and infinite resolution is palpable in comparison to their digital equivalents." This kind of statements bother me because they are simply not true. You can have "tangible" controls (physical knobs and sliders) with digital signal processing back-end and I bet you that you can't tell the difference in a double blind test. This is the same bullshit that is thrown around by designers, artists and any kind of 'aficionados'- cliches of romanticization of the analog. Oscilloscopes went full digital in 90's not because they were worse than analog counterparts. These are precision instruments that benefit from digital processing. Don't get me wrong - I own an analog oscilloscope for different reasons, i.e. I was fascinated by how things were done back in the day which I believe is the central theme of this thread. These analog motion graphics machines are amazing - NOT because of 'infinite resolution' but the process of creating art: Oscillators, scan rates, amplification, etc.
  - zokier 9y ago
    > Oscilloscopes went full digital in 90's not because they were worse than analog counterparts Kinda curious example to bring up; I was under the impression that early (ie 90s) digital oscilloscopes were quite seriously compromised, especially in the UX department.
    - npgatech 9y ago
      Just like any technology, it took time to mature. You are hard pressed to find a brand new analog oscilloscopes today. WHY? Because, they provide enormous benefits even if the bandwidth was identical to analog counter parts. For one, you can't fricking store a waveform and look at it later (!!!)
      - stefco_ 9y ago
        We do a lot of high speed triggering in my electronics lab, and i can tell you that most low grade digital scopes cannot trigger fast enough. The $25,000 digital scope works, as do all of our old analog scopes.
      - KGIII 9y ago
        Google indicates quite a few new analog oscilloscopes are available. My search term was just 'analog oscilloscope.' New and used ones are available.
      - Bromskloss 9y ago
        The claim isn't that analogue oscilloscopes are generally superior. The claim is that they have responsive user interfaces, which digital equipment often does not, or at least didn't use to. It's not even that it is, or was, impossible to make digital equipment with responsive interfaces. It's rather that the easiest way to do it often involves a delay.
  - subwayclub 9y ago
    Digital tends to have more latency by its nature. Parameter changes often produce zipper artifacts, stepping, etc. It's all solvable, but not uniformly solved.
    - npgatech 9y ago
      >> "Digital tends to have more latency by its nature" - So...GPS satellites, atomic clocks, operation of a modern processor are full of latency that humans can detect? Human reaction time is in the order of 100ms. This statement makes zero sense. I honestly don't understand and I'd love you to explain what specific areas you think where this happens.
      - gt_ 9y ago
        It makes perfect sense in this context of graphics software. You're forgetting that computer graphics are a heap of latency issues.
      - tudorw 9y ago
        "I said, ‘No, that can’t be so, Larry,’ ” Eno recalled. “ ‘We’ve all worked to that track, so it must be right.’ But he said, ‘Sorry, I just can’t play to it.’ ” Eno eventually adjusted the click to Mullen’s satisfaction, but he was just humoring him. It was only later, after the drummer had left, that Eno checked the original track again and realized that Mullen was right: the click was off by six milliseconds. “The thing is,” Eno told me, “when we were adjusting it I once had it two milliseconds to the wrong side of the beat, and he said, ‘No, you’ve got to come back a bit.’ Which I think is absolutely staggering.”" https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/04/25/the-possibilian https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/04/25/the-possibilia...
        GuiA 9y ago
        I play an online game (Overwatch) and I can tell the difference between a 20ms ping and a 40ms one, so I’m not surprised that an extremely proficient musician with a lifetime of practice can tell a difference of a few miliseconds. In high school physics we were doing some experiments around pendulums and used metronomes to measure the period; I remember the teacher telling us about a former student of hers, a concert level musician, who could keep a beat in perfect timing without using a metronome at all.
  - kitotik 9y ago
    Responding to hyperbole with hyperbole isn’t a very productive way to get your point across.
  - stefco_ 9y ago
    Analog fetishization is definitely annoying. But there are sometimes desirable features of simple analog equipment that are more complicated to implement in digital circuits. Sometimes that simplicty can be helpful to certain workflows, or aesthetically pleasing in its own right. A canonical example is the gentle peaking behavior of vacuum tube vs. digital amps. Even if it's true that you can get an arbitrarily good approximation of that gentler sound with an all digital circuit, I think some people just like having simple analog circuits that they can reason about more directly. Regardless of whether those mental models are physically accurate, if using an analog circuit allows a person to conceptualize the workflow in a way that leads to interesting art, that's what matters. And again, the aesthetic of the machinery itself can totally be worth something to a user, even if the circuit's functionality as a black box is no different than a digital circuit's. I do agree about how annoying it is to see people misled about the quality of digital products, though, particularly for consumer goods where people aren't interested in the implementation details anyway. I'm not about to splurge on an analog amplifier for my speakers, and I don't think most consumers should bother doing so either (again, unless they really appreciate the implementation details of an analog circuit).
  - tudorw 9y ago
    Firstly, have you tried an analog synthesizer ?
  - paulrpotts 9y ago
    I was not fully sold on digital synths until I used a Nord Modular. That thing was so responsive it convinced me that analog modeling could be just as fun and expressive. Now I think some folks want particular analog sounds. There are digital replacements for most of them, and of course they are a lot more convenient, but they don't always sound _completely_ authentic. If you want the tuning instability, noise, distortion, etc., well, go ahead and maintain an antique synthesizer. It's kind of a pain, but if you really _must_ have the original sound, go for it. What I miss is the quality of the actual keyboards. I had a chance to buy a vintage Yamaha KX-88 keyboard some years ago and I chickened out, and I regret it. If I had bought it, I'd probably be still enjoying it alongside my vintage DX-7.
  - detaro 9y ago
    It's possible, yes. It's also true that e.g. when you look at audio synthesizers, a shockingly large portion of the digital gear out there doesn't do it, making this a theoretical argument for a lot of the market, especially the cheaper end. Controllers or intermediate signals being sampled slowly or with too low resolution is a common complaint with digital or hybrid gear. There's also other, more general UX aspects that influence how an instrument feels to play that influence how it is used. So while I'm not fan of people insisting that they can get the perfect sound only with analog gear, I find the "but it's just math" arguments equally annoying.
  - Bromskloss 9y ago
    > Oscilloscopes went full digital in 90's not because they were worse than analog counterparts. The point, which you might have noticed when using digital and analogue oscilloscopes, is that delays come naturally in digital equipment. You _could_ probably get rid of it in all or most applications if you really made a point of doing so (and that would be very nice), but that is often not done.
  - Iv 9y ago
    Yes, it is annoying but you can't say it is false. What is annoying is that he is actually right in practice. Most software developers including those in the industries where it should matter, do not care about latency or realtimeness, because in practice these things are so hard that no one really wants to pay developer time to bring latency from 100 ms back to 5 ms where it should be. There are good technical reasons to go digital, and in theory, no drawbacks. Yet, is pisses me off that I need to boot a motherf%*$cking oscilloscope and wait several seconds. I have spent the first years of my career at an AR company whose constant worry was to lower latency and maximize increase rate. I know this stuff is hard and as an unrecognizable handicap I now have an eye for all the small glitches in video: occasional fps slip, brief shearing, dropped frame, etc... I have yet to find a giant advertisement screen that had none of these. Most people think 60 ms latency and 30 fps is good enough but let me tell you, we had a very different kind of reactions when we had less than 16 ms of latency (i.e. "one frame") and 60 fps display (or rather that annoying 59.94 Hz that TV asked us and forced us to feed to the software through a specific clock plug). When people talk about the "analog feel", that's what they mean: full fps (usually 50Hz in Europe, 59.94Hz in US an Japan) and <16 ms latency. No glitch, no shear (though analog system can shear) and no framedrops. Very few digital systems actually live up to that standard.
- gt_ 9y ago
  ...as I glance at the midi controller I got a few years ago in hopes I would easily be able to map it to parameters in 3ds Max/Houdini. Nobody cares anymore :(.
- bane 9y ago
  It's very analog-equivalent-to-the-demoscene.
gt_ 9y ago
TFW you grew up obsessed with video graphics but lived in middle-of-nowhere Appalachia, then find out this guy's studio was half an hour away the whole time.
Retr0spectrum 9y ago
Of course it wouldn't be the same, but it would be great if someone made a software emulator for this. It's the sort of thing that would be a lot of fun to play around with in a web browser.
- forinti 9y ago
  Or maybe a panel you could attach to a Raspberry Pi. Children would love this.
  - SwellJoe 9y ago
    The truly amazing thing is that one can say that with a straight face (and not be wrong). The notion that one could take a device that costs a few bucks and replicate a significant percentage of the capability (at least in terms of results, though not in terms of the creative process) that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and required a whole team to maintain and operate it effectively continues to be ridiculous to me. As an old-timer who studied and worked in tape-based analog audio recording studios and at a pre-digital television station (barely, I was there when the digital machines moved in, just before I quit), this utter transformation of all of the audiovisual industries within my lifetime has been nothing short of incredible. I've watched it happen, and my mind still boggles at what can be done "in the box", even on modest hardware, today vs. 10, 20, or 30 years ago. Every decade sees an order of magnitude drop in price and order of magnitude increase in capability, at least for the non-physical aspects of the job (cameras, microphones, lenses, speakers, monitors, lights, instruments, room treatment for absorption/diffusion, etc. still cost a lot and probably always will, though even many those things have dropped in price precipitously due to the steadily improving quality of low-end products...once upon a time, a $50 microphone was a joke, today you can make a pretty decent recording with a $50 MXL or similar).
33degrees 9y ago
I haven't watched the video yet, but there are definitely analog graphic synthesizers being made today, most notable those by https://www.lzxindustries.net/ https://www.lzxindustries.net/ There are also quite a few software packages that implement analog synthesis techniques, like https://lumen-app.com/ https://lumen-app.com/ and http://v002.info/about/ http://v002.info/about/
- olewhalehunter 9y ago
  was going to say this equipment is still used quite a bit and there are many working survivors left
  - kitotik 9y ago
    You beat me to it. Much like vinyl, this stuff tends to maintain a pretty core following. The eurorack modular synth boom is certainly introducing a lot of new people to analogue video synthesis. Exciting times!
    - snaky 9y ago
      > to analogue video synthesis Video? Eurorack and modular synthesizers of other format and kinds are about audio, right?
      - LeoPanthera 9y ago
        Eurorack analogue video is a thing. If you’re into learning more about modular synths I can highly recommend the docu-movie “I dream of Wires”.
        kitotik 9y ago
        Yes, an excellent film! It’s all just voltage, but obviously with video oscillating at much higher rates. You use most ‘audio’ modules with video modules and vice versa. All the typical logic works like divide, mult, add, etc. It’s a really fascinating format!
zokier 9y ago
I wonder how much it costs to keep it running; I bet the comment "phew its got hot in here" is no coincidence, the equipment looks like it will draw some serious power. Props to the guy for maintaining the equipment, it is definitely cool thing even if I struggle to think what I'd do with it.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  I can imagine this having massive potential in music videos.
  - Bromskloss 9y ago
    Perhaps more as cool equipment that appears in the video than for what it can produce. :-)
- KGIII 9y ago
  One of the first things I noticed was that the knobs, sliders, and faceplate labels weren't worn out. They are all clear and even the demarcation lines were all clear. Given the ages involved, I'd expect those to be worn and faded to the point where they aren't visible. I suspect he has done a while lot of maintanence and restoration on the devices. Even his jumpers appeared to be in new condition.
cr0sh 9y ago
Note: I haven't watched the video in full, so what I say below may already have been answered in it... === Part of me thinks this should be in the Computer History Museum and not in this guy's garage - simply from a preservation standpoint. At the same time, I'm not sure if this could be considered "computer history" or not - though it certainly has elements of analog computing. The Scanimate was one of those iconic machines that ultimately helped to lead us to where we are today with computer graphics - if this is really the only operating one in existence (I don't necessarily doubt it, from the history I have read about it and early graphics), then proper preservation should be paramount. But I can understand if the guy didn't want to give it up. On a side note - how many here have seen this?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj9pbs-jjis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj9pbs-jjis Basically - computation of fractals using analog video feedback...kinda amazing that (in theory) something like could have been done in the 1950-60s using Eidophor projectors of the era (amazing analog tech in its own right)...
- gt_ 9y ago
  I also haven't watched the whole thing :/ but I have worked in many areas of film/video production. I have always been amazed at how these machines and their operators performed this magic for decades but were overlooked by both their audience and industry. This studio and this machine are glorious wonders of 20th century media technology and art history but almost nobody realizes this. Very sad. :( It is similar to the CGI industry's hard work being overlooked over the years, but maybe that is changing retrospectively as more people come to realize the feats they accomplished on antique hardware.
- gabriel34 9y ago
  He addresses this at about 4:05 into the video. Basically he wants it working, not as a standing display
  - Aloha 9y ago
    Thats probably my biggest complaint about CHM, is they have no living displays - thats what I love so much about the LCM in Seattle, its all living, breathing tech, that you can touch.
ehsankia 9y ago
The machine looks fascinating and I would've loved to learn more about the intricacies of how it worked (and that's the sort of content I come to HN for), but sadly, nearly the entire 5 minutes ended up being about this guy being nostalgic, saying how this old system was the best and how the new systems will never be as exciting.
- makomk 9y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE and the subsequent videos might be more interesting. I remember seeing a really good video explaining and demonstrating this system a few years ago, but can't find it again unfortunately.
aleyan 9y ago
> It is very tangible. You can effect the image with your hands. You can almost touch it. You can't touch any of this digital stuff, it is in the computer somewhere. My first camera was digital and my first exposure to photo editing was with photoshop in high school. When I took a B&W photography class as a senior in college it was eye opening. We were in the darkroom dodging and burning photographs on the enlarger with our hands; it was exhilarating. I may not see eye to eye with Dave Sieg on digital, but I completely agree with him on physicality of creation. There is a qualitatively different feel when you are working with physical controls and within constraints of a non digital system. > You plugin in things to make your animation. That is really where the term plugin came from. Also this bit is also quite interesting. Is this etymology true?
bane 9y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE
DonHopkins 9y ago
Nothing goes better with Scanimate graphics than Raymond Scott music! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stX3zM2oL8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stX3zM2oL8g "Strict rules of conduct" -- pff! How retro!
bane 9y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNwBgO5qVY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNwBgO5qVY
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  Sounds like the confessions of a heroin dealer! 5:21 "The true skill of the flying asshole wipe is in the timing."
DonHopkins 9y ago
For a great demo of an analog video graphics processor looking at itself, and a deep explanation of the chaos theory behind video feedback, to some cool mesmerizing boop boopity boop electronic music, check out Jim Crutchfield's video, "Space-Time Dynamics in Video Feedback": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Kn3djJMCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Kn3djJMCE "Self-Organization and Pattern Formation in an Image Processing System" "A video camera views its monitor: information flows in a closed optical-electronic loop" Here is his paper about it that he published in Physica (1984): http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~cmg/papers/Crutchfield.PhysicaD1984.pdf http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~cmg/papers/Crutchfield.PhysicaD1984.... SPACE-TIME DYNAMICS IN VIDEO FEEDBACK James P. Crutchfield Center for Nonlinear Studies, Los Alamos National Laboratories, Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545, USA Video feedback provides a readily available experimental system to study complex spatial and temporal dynamics. This article outlines the use and modeling of video feedback systems. It includes a discussion of video physics and proposes two models for video feedback dynamics based on a discrete-time iterated functional equation and on a reaction-diffusion partial differential equation. Color photographs illustrate results from actual video experiments. Digital computer simulations of the models reproduce the basic spatio-temporal dynamics found in the experiments. http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~chaos/ http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~chaos/ A great youtube comment on the video: Ross Oldenburg Crutchfield's paper is massively influential for video artists. I've done very similar things to this. The key is to have an image processing system in the feedback loop. In this case, he's using a Sandin IP (you can see it at 1:05), which is an early video synthesizer (that you had to build yourself. there weren't even kits. Just a manual). That's where the colors are coming from, and I would guess the black and white fields that are obscuring parts of the image at points. I would bet he's using a black and white camera, too. To pull of video feedback like this successfully, you need to have control over all aspects of the video signal and you need a camera that allows you to manually control the iris and focus. That said, it's amazing and a lot of fun. And LZX industries makes something similar to the Sandin IP today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandin_Image_Processor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandin_Image_Processor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qh6jRzjmcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qh6jRzjmcY
d08ble 9y ago
Analog is amazing! I'm 3-bit & analog computers fan, but mobile VM platform much more better under control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk58kWIAqMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk58kWIAqMM
exodust 9y ago
Background music sounds very modern and digital. They should have chosen something analog. Go back in time even to early 1990s and any video editor would tell you they'd kill for what we have now with modern digital video including effects. I recall editing on u-matic tape in the 90s, man that was painful. You couldn't quite grab a frame, it was hit or miss if you wanted frame accuracy. I did enjoy the ergonomics of big control panels, switches, dials, but not the leads and plugs, and not rewinding tapes or losing quality when copying; 4:3 ratio everywhere and the list goes on.
davesieg 9y ago
All good commentary! Glad my preservation efforts have gotten this group talking about Scanimate and analog. -Dave Sieg

172 points by Unai 9y ago

The instantaneous hands on control is enticing, I've played with analog audio and the immediacy of alterations and infinite resolution is palpable in comparison to their digital equivalents. He should live stream some 'art' pieces to music, I'd watch :) Here's Scanimate + Moog; https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=184&v=1Cywgoftv4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=184&v=1Cywgoftv4... More at http://www.scanimate.com/index.html http://www.scanimate.com/index.html

npgatech 9y ago
"I've played with analog audio and the immediacy of alterations and infinite resolution is palpable in comparison to their digital equivalents." This kind of statements bother me because they are simply not true. You can have "tangible" controls (physical knobs and sliders) with digital signal processing back-end and I bet you that you can't tell the difference in a double blind test. This is the same bullshit that is thrown around by designers, artists and any kind of 'aficionados'- cliches of romanticization of the analog. Oscilloscopes went full digital in 90's not because they were worse than analog counterparts. These are precision instruments that benefit from digital processing. Don't get me wrong - I own an analog oscilloscope for different reasons, i.e. I was fascinated by how things were done back in the day which I believe is the central theme of this thread. These analog motion graphics machines are amazing - NOT because of 'infinite resolution' but the process of creating art: Oscillators, scan rates, amplification, etc.
- zokier 9y ago
  > Oscilloscopes went full digital in 90's not because they were worse than analog counterparts Kinda curious example to bring up; I was under the impression that early (ie 90s) digital oscilloscopes were quite seriously compromised, especially in the UX department.
  - npgatech 9y ago
    Just like any technology, it took time to mature. You are hard pressed to find a brand new analog oscilloscopes today. WHY? Because, they provide enormous benefits even if the bandwidth was identical to analog counter parts. For one, you can't fricking store a waveform and look at it later (!!!)
    - stefco_ 9y ago
      We do a lot of high speed triggering in my electronics lab, and i can tell you that most low grade digital scopes cannot trigger fast enough. The $25,000 digital scope works, as do all of our old analog scopes.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      Google indicates quite a few new analog oscilloscopes are available. My search term was just 'analog oscilloscope.' New and used ones are available.
    - Bromskloss 9y ago
      The claim isn't that analogue oscilloscopes are generally superior. The claim is that they have responsive user interfaces, which digital equipment often does not, or at least didn't use to. It's not even that it is, or was, impossible to make digital equipment with responsive interfaces. It's rather that the easiest way to do it often involves a delay.
- subwayclub 9y ago
  Digital tends to have more latency by its nature. Parameter changes often produce zipper artifacts, stepping, etc. It's all solvable, but not uniformly solved.
  - npgatech 9y ago
    >> "Digital tends to have more latency by its nature" - So...GPS satellites, atomic clocks, operation of a modern processor are full of latency that humans can detect? Human reaction time is in the order of 100ms. This statement makes zero sense. I honestly don't understand and I'd love you to explain what specific areas you think where this happens.
    - gt_ 9y ago
      It makes perfect sense in this context of graphics software. You're forgetting that computer graphics are a heap of latency issues.
    - tudorw 9y ago
      "I said, ‘No, that can’t be so, Larry,’ ” Eno recalled. “ ‘We’ve all worked to that track, so it must be right.’ But he said, ‘Sorry, I just can’t play to it.’ ” Eno eventually adjusted the click to Mullen’s satisfaction, but he was just humoring him. It was only later, after the drummer had left, that Eno checked the original track again and realized that Mullen was right: the click was off by six milliseconds. “The thing is,” Eno told me, “when we were adjusting it I once had it two milliseconds to the wrong side of the beat, and he said, ‘No, you’ve got to come back a bit.’ Which I think is absolutely staggering.”" https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/04/25/the-possibilian https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/04/25/the-possibilia...
      - GuiA 9y ago
        I play an online game (Overwatch) and I can tell the difference between a 20ms ping and a 40ms one, so I’m not surprised that an extremely proficient musician with a lifetime of practice can tell a difference of a few miliseconds. In high school physics we were doing some experiments around pendulums and used metronomes to measure the period; I remember the teacher telling us about a former student of hers, a concert level musician, who could keep a beat in perfect timing without using a metronome at all.
- kitotik 9y ago
  Responding to hyperbole with hyperbole isn’t a very productive way to get your point across.
- stefco_ 9y ago
  Analog fetishization is definitely annoying. But there are sometimes desirable features of simple analog equipment that are more complicated to implement in digital circuits. Sometimes that simplicty can be helpful to certain workflows, or aesthetically pleasing in its own right. A canonical example is the gentle peaking behavior of vacuum tube vs. digital amps. Even if it's true that you can get an arbitrarily good approximation of that gentler sound with an all digital circuit, I think some people just like having simple analog circuits that they can reason about more directly. Regardless of whether those mental models are physically accurate, if using an analog circuit allows a person to conceptualize the workflow in a way that leads to interesting art, that's what matters. And again, the aesthetic of the machinery itself can totally be worth something to a user, even if the circuit's functionality as a black box is no different than a digital circuit's. I do agree about how annoying it is to see people misled about the quality of digital products, though, particularly for consumer goods where people aren't interested in the implementation details anyway. I'm not about to splurge on an analog amplifier for my speakers, and I don't think most consumers should bother doing so either (again, unless they really appreciate the implementation details of an analog circuit).
- tudorw 9y ago
  Firstly, have you tried an analog synthesizer ?
- paulrpotts 9y ago
  I was not fully sold on digital synths until I used a Nord Modular. That thing was so responsive it convinced me that analog modeling could be just as fun and expressive. Now I think some folks want particular analog sounds. There are digital replacements for most of them, and of course they are a lot more convenient, but they don't always sound _completely_ authentic. If you want the tuning instability, noise, distortion, etc., well, go ahead and maintain an antique synthesizer. It's kind of a pain, but if you really _must_ have the original sound, go for it. What I miss is the quality of the actual keyboards. I had a chance to buy a vintage Yamaha KX-88 keyboard some years ago and I chickened out, and I regret it. If I had bought it, I'd probably be still enjoying it alongside my vintage DX-7.
- detaro 9y ago
  It's possible, yes. It's also true that e.g. when you look at audio synthesizers, a shockingly large portion of the digital gear out there doesn't do it, making this a theoretical argument for a lot of the market, especially the cheaper end. Controllers or intermediate signals being sampled slowly or with too low resolution is a common complaint with digital or hybrid gear. There's also other, more general UX aspects that influence how an instrument feels to play that influence how it is used. So while I'm not fan of people insisting that they can get the perfect sound only with analog gear, I find the "but it's just math" arguments equally annoying.
- Bromskloss 9y ago
  > Oscilloscopes went full digital in 90's not because they were worse than analog counterparts. The point, which you might have noticed when using digital and analogue oscilloscopes, is that delays come naturally in digital equipment. You _could_ probably get rid of it in all or most applications if you really made a point of doing so (and that would be very nice), but that is often not done.
- Iv 9y ago
  Yes, it is annoying but you can't say it is false. What is annoying is that he is actually right in practice. Most software developers including those in the industries where it should matter, do not care about latency or realtimeness, because in practice these things are so hard that no one really wants to pay developer time to bring latency from 100 ms back to 5 ms where it should be. There are good technical reasons to go digital, and in theory, no drawbacks. Yet, is pisses me off that I need to boot a motherf%*$cking oscilloscope and wait several seconds. I have spent the first years of my career at an AR company whose constant worry was to lower latency and maximize increase rate. I know this stuff is hard and as an unrecognizable handicap I now have an eye for all the small glitches in video: occasional fps slip, brief shearing, dropped frame, etc... I have yet to find a giant advertisement screen that had none of these. Most people think 60 ms latency and 30 fps is good enough but let me tell you, we had a very different kind of reactions when we had less than 16 ms of latency (i.e. "one frame") and 60 fps display (or rather that annoying 59.94 Hz that TV asked us and forced us to feed to the software through a specific clock plug). When people talk about the "analog feel", that's what they mean: full fps (usually 50Hz in Europe, 59.94Hz in US an Japan) and <16 ms latency. No glitch, no shear (though analog system can shear) and no framedrops. Very few digital systems actually live up to that standard.
gt_ 9y ago
...as I glance at the midi controller I got a few years ago in hopes I would easily be able to map it to parameters in 3ds Max/Houdini. Nobody cares anymore :(.
bane 9y ago
It's very analog-equivalent-to-the-demoscene.

gt_ 9y ago

TFW you grew up obsessed with video graphics but lived in middle-of-nowhere Appalachia, then find out this guy's studio was half an hour away the whole time.

Retr0spectrum 9y ago

Of course it wouldn't be the same, but it would be great if someone made a software emulator for this. It's the sort of thing that would be a lot of fun to play around with in a web browser.

forinti 9y ago
Or maybe a panel you could attach to a Raspberry Pi. Children would love this.
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  The truly amazing thing is that one can say that with a straight face (and not be wrong). The notion that one could take a device that costs a few bucks and replicate a significant percentage of the capability (at least in terms of results, though not in terms of the creative process) that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and required a whole team to maintain and operate it effectively continues to be ridiculous to me. As an old-timer who studied and worked in tape-based analog audio recording studios and at a pre-digital television station (barely, I was there when the digital machines moved in, just before I quit), this utter transformation of all of the audiovisual industries within my lifetime has been nothing short of incredible. I've watched it happen, and my mind still boggles at what can be done "in the box", even on modest hardware, today vs. 10, 20, or 30 years ago. Every decade sees an order of magnitude drop in price and order of magnitude increase in capability, at least for the non-physical aspects of the job (cameras, microphones, lenses, speakers, monitors, lights, instruments, room treatment for absorption/diffusion, etc. still cost a lot and probably always will, though even many those things have dropped in price precipitously due to the steadily improving quality of low-end products...once upon a time, a $50 microphone was a joke, today you can make a pretty decent recording with a $50 MXL or similar).

33degrees 9y ago

I haven't watched the video yet, but there are definitely analog graphic synthesizers being made today, most notable those by https://www.lzxindustries.net/ https://www.lzxindustries.net/ There are also quite a few software packages that implement analog synthesis techniques, like https://lumen-app.com/ https://lumen-app.com/ and http://v002.info/about/ http://v002.info/about/

olewhalehunter 9y ago
was going to say this equipment is still used quite a bit and there are many working survivors left
- kitotik 9y ago
  You beat me to it. Much like vinyl, this stuff tends to maintain a pretty core following. The eurorack modular synth boom is certainly introducing a lot of new people to analogue video synthesis. Exciting times!
  - snaky 9y ago
    > to analogue video synthesis Video? Eurorack and modular synthesizers of other format and kinds are about audio, right?
    - LeoPanthera 9y ago
      Eurorack analogue video is a thing. If you’re into learning more about modular synths I can highly recommend the docu-movie “I dream of Wires”.
      - kitotik 9y ago
        Yes, an excellent film! It’s all just voltage, but obviously with video oscillating at much higher rates. You use most ‘audio’ modules with video modules and vice versa. All the typical logic works like divide, mult, add, etc. It’s a really fascinating format!

zokier 9y ago

I wonder how much it costs to keep it running; I bet the comment "phew its got hot in here" is no coincidence, the equipment looks like it will draw some serious power. Props to the guy for maintaining the equipment, it is definitely cool thing even if I struggle to think what I'd do with it.

Boothroid 9y ago
I can imagine this having massive potential in music videos.
- Bromskloss 9y ago
  Perhaps more as cool equipment that appears in the video than for what it can produce. :-)
KGIII 9y ago
One of the first things I noticed was that the knobs, sliders, and faceplate labels weren't worn out. They are all clear and even the demarcation lines were all clear. Given the ages involved, I'd expect those to be worn and faded to the point where they aren't visible. I suspect he has done a while lot of maintanence and restoration on the devices. Even his jumpers appeared to be in new condition.

cr0sh 9y ago

Note: I haven't watched the video in full, so what I say below may already have been answered in it... === Part of me thinks this should be in the Computer History Museum and not in this guy's garage - simply from a preservation standpoint. At the same time, I'm not sure if this could be considered "computer history" or not - though it certainly has elements of analog computing. The Scanimate was one of those iconic machines that ultimately helped to lead us to where we are today with computer graphics - if this is really the only operating one in existence (I don't necessarily doubt it, from the history I have read about it and early graphics), then proper preservation should be paramount. But I can understand if the guy didn't want to give it up. On a side note - how many here have seen this?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj9pbs-jjis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj9pbs-jjis Basically - computation of fractals using analog video feedback...kinda amazing that (in theory) something like could have been done in the 1950-60s using Eidophor projectors of the era (amazing analog tech in its own right)...

gt_ 9y ago
I also haven't watched the whole thing :/ but I have worked in many areas of film/video production. I have always been amazed at how these machines and their operators performed this magic for decades but were overlooked by both their audience and industry. This studio and this machine are glorious wonders of 20th century media technology and art history but almost nobody realizes this. Very sad. :( It is similar to the CGI industry's hard work being overlooked over the years, but maybe that is changing retrospectively as more people come to realize the feats they accomplished on antique hardware.
gabriel34 9y ago
He addresses this at about 4:05 into the video. Basically he wants it working, not as a standing display
- Aloha 9y ago
  Thats probably my biggest complaint about CHM, is they have no living displays - thats what I love so much about the LCM in Seattle, its all living, breathing tech, that you can touch.

ehsankia 9y ago

The machine looks fascinating and I would've loved to learn more about the intricacies of how it worked (and that's the sort of content I come to HN for), but sadly, nearly the entire 5 minutes ended up being about this guy being nostalgic, saying how this old system was the best and how the new systems will never be as exciting.

makomk 9y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE and the subsequent videos might be more interesting. I remember seeing a really good video explaining and demonstrating this system a few years ago, but can't find it again unfortunately.

aleyan 9y ago

> It is very tangible. You can effect the image with your hands. You can almost touch it. You can't touch any of this digital stuff, it is in the computer somewhere. My first camera was digital and my first exposure to photo editing was with photoshop in high school. When I took a B&W photography class as a senior in college it was eye opening. We were in the darkroom dodging and burning photographs on the enlarger with our hands; it was exhilarating. I may not see eye to eye with Dave Sieg on digital, but I completely agree with him on physicality of creation. There is a qualitatively different feel when you are working with physical controls and within constraints of a non digital system. > You plugin in things to make your animation. That is really where the term plugin came from. Also this bit is also quite interesting. Is this etymology true?

bane 9y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjkMThH0aE

DonHopkins 9y ago

Nothing goes better with Scanimate graphics than Raymond Scott music! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stX3zM2oL8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stX3zM2oL8g "Strict rules of conduct" -- pff! How retro!

bane 9y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNwBgO5qVY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNwBgO5qVY

DonHopkins 9y ago
Sounds like the confessions of a heroin dealer! 5:21 "The true skill of the flying asshole wipe is in the timing."

DonHopkins 9y ago

For a great demo of an analog video graphics processor looking at itself, and a deep explanation of the chaos theory behind video feedback, to some cool mesmerizing boop boopity boop electronic music, check out Jim Crutchfield's video, "Space-Time Dynamics in Video Feedback": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Kn3djJMCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Kn3djJMCE "Self-Organization and Pattern Formation in an Image Processing System" "A video camera views its monitor: information flows in a closed optical-electronic loop" Here is his paper about it that he published in Physica (1984): http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~cmg/papers/Crutchfield.PhysicaD1984.pdf http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~cmg/papers/Crutchfield.PhysicaD1984.... SPACE-TIME DYNAMICS IN VIDEO FEEDBACK James P. Crutchfield Center for Nonlinear Studies, Los Alamos National Laboratories, Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545, USA Video feedback provides a readily available experimental system to study complex spatial and temporal dynamics. This article outlines the use and modeling of video feedback systems. It includes a discussion of video physics and proposes two models for video feedback dynamics based on a discrete-time iterated functional equation and on a reaction-diffusion partial differential equation. Color photographs illustrate results from actual video experiments. Digital computer simulations of the models reproduce the basic spatio-temporal dynamics found in the experiments. http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~chaos/ http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~chaos/ A great youtube comment on the video: Ross Oldenburg Crutchfield's paper is massively influential for video artists. I've done very similar things to this. The key is to have an image processing system in the feedback loop. In this case, he's using a Sandin IP (you can see it at 1:05), which is an early video synthesizer (that you had to build yourself. there weren't even kits. Just a manual). That's where the colors are coming from, and I would guess the black and white fields that are obscuring parts of the image at points. I would bet he's using a black and white camera, too. To pull of video feedback like this successfully, you need to have control over all aspects of the video signal and you need a camera that allows you to manually control the iris and focus. That said, it's amazing and a lot of fun. And LZX industries makes something similar to the Sandin IP today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandin_Image_Processor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandin_Image_Processor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qh6jRzjmcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qh6jRzjmcY

d08ble 9y ago

Analog is amazing! I'm 3-bit & analog computers fan, but mobile VM platform much more better under control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk58kWIAqMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk58kWIAqMM

exodust 9y ago

Background music sounds very modern and digital. They should have chosen something analog. Go back in time even to early 1990s and any video editor would tell you they'd kill for what we have now with modern digital video including effects. I recall editing on u-matic tape in the 90s, man that was painful. You couldn't quite grab a frame, it was hit or miss if you wanted frame accuracy. I did enjoy the ergonomics of big control panels, switches, dials, but not the leads and plugs, and not rewinding tapes or losing quality when copying; 4:3 ratio everywhere and the list goes on.

davesieg 9y ago

All good commentary! Glad my preservation efforts have gotten this group talking about Scanimate and analog. -Dave Sieg